493-How to Talk Food & Body Image with Kids with Kerry Miller

How do you talk to kids about food and body image without passing on diet culture?

Start with what children already know. Babies cry when they’re hungry and turn away when they’re full. That ability to sense what’s happening inside the body is called interoception, and it is the foundation of body trust. Registered dietitian Kerry Miller, author of Violet Learns to Pause, explains that kids don’t need to be taught to trust their bodies. Adults and diet culture override that trust with pressure like “one more bite” or “finish your plate.”

Language is the main tool. Avoid labeling foods as good or bad, because young children translate “bad food” into “I am bad.” Call a cookie a cookie. Skip comments about bodies entirely, including compliments about appearance. Instead of “you look so pretty,” try “you look like you’re having so much fun.” When a child is called fat by a peer, avoid the reflex to say “you’re not fat,” which teaches that fat is bad. Get curious about how they felt instead.

Keep food pressure-free. Picky eating is developmentally normal around ages two to three, and research shows a child may need 20 to 30 exposures to accept a new food. Offer it without requiring it, look at intake over a week rather than a single meal, and keep the dinner table focused on connection rather than amounts eaten.

Finally, adults go first. Kerry Miller and Stephanie Dodier, host of It’s Beyond The Food podcast, agree that a parent’s own relationship with food and body will slip out in front of their kids eventually. Healing your own relationship is the most protective thing you can do. Diet culture won’t disappear, but children who grow up with a counter-narrative can question it.

Transcript

[00:00:03] Stephanie: Welcome to It’s Beyond the Food podcast, my sister. I’m your host, Stephanie Dodier, and today we have a guest, Kerry Miller. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:00:12] Kerry: Hi, thanks for having me on.

[00:00:14] Stephanie: I’m very excited because this is one of those topics that I don’t talk about, which is children, parenting, and every time we bring this topic, there’s a huge reaction.

[00:00:25] Stephanie: People love it ’cause this is a new topic for our podcast, and I have experts to talk about that because, disclaimer, I do not have any kids. In case you’re new around here, I am a childless woman, and this is not my zone of genius. I’m not an expert in this. So Kerry’ gonna walk us through body trust for kids today.

[00:00:44] Stephanie: I’m so excited to have this conversation with you.

[00:00:47] Kerry: Me too. Yeah, let’s get into it.

[00:00:49] Stephanie: So Kerry is a registered dietician, mom of three- Mm-hmm … three daughters, and the author of a book that just launched called Violet Learns, which is a picture book that helps children trust their body.

[00:01:06] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:06] Stephanie: How did you came to do this work?

[00:01:10] Kerry: Yeah, so it, I’ll try to make it as succinct as possible. Um, so I am a dietician. I’ve worked in so many areas, research, primary care, pediatrics, um, but I’ve also lived some of what I’m trying to put in this book and protect kids from. So before I was a dietician, uh, my university experience, I was the woman with the Post-It note.

[00:01:39] Kerry: I walked around writing down everything that I was eating, the calorie count, the math, it never ended. Um, so I know sort of the energy and time, and joy food and body preoccupation can take. And then I spent close to a decade of the last bit of my life working in primary care, mostly with women, and a lot on weight management.

[00:02:09] Kerry: And a lot of these women had a really complicated relationship with food and their bodies. Um, and I was very lucky to follow them for a longer period of time. So we got to build relationships, got to build trust together, and when I’d ask them the tough questions around when did this start for you, almost all of them said childhood or could trace it back to childhood.

[00:02:32] Kerry: You know, a parent on a diet, a doctor’s visit where the doctor looked at their body as a problem without even asking them a question, relatives commenting on them going for seconds at dinner. Uh, and these were not one single moment, but sort of patterns that had happened in their early childhood years.

[00:02:54] Kerry: And then I had my last daughter, and this all got personal because I have three girls, like you said, um, ages are four, two, and now 10 months, but when my youngest was a newborn, I remember in the middle of the night soothing her to sleep just thinking like, “Man, a lot of these women could trace it back to the beginning, and I’m in the beginning with my girls right now.

[00:03:20] Kerry: I need to do something about this. I need to prepare them.” And we are in this season of life where we read a lot of books, so I went looking for a book because they’re a really great way to explain heavy and sometimes difficult concepts to kids, and I couldn’t find a book that talked about body trust.

[00:03:42] Kerry: You know, no nutrition lesson, no nutrition rules, just listening to what your body’s asking for and that trust piece, and I couldn’t find it, so I started writing it.

[00:03:55] Stephanie: I’m just like, for people who are watching on YouTube, you’re seeing me shaking my head. Yeah. Um, and I’m gonna share this with Kerry perhaps because she doesn’t know that.

[00:04:03] Stephanie: I’m sure many listener know. That’s me. I was walked in to Weight Watcher at 12 years old.

[00:04:10] Kerry: Mm.

[00:04:11] Stephanie: Because of doctor visit at 10 telling me that I was too big, too fat, and finally I went to Weight Watchers. So I never developed a, quote, “normal relationship to food.” So you’re talk- Mm … you… I would have been one of your patients- Mm-hmm

[00:04:25] Stephanie: right? With a very complicated relationship. And, and it’s because my family environment was in diet culture, that, you know, the ’80s. Like, I’m born in ’75. Yep. So the ’80s is just, my mom was on a diet, my aunts were on a diet, my grandma was on a diet. It was just normal. Mm-hmm. So it’s not malicious.

[00:04:46] Kerry: Yep.

[00:04:46] Stephanie: It just was normal.

[00:04:48] Stephanie: Um, so I’m recognizing this, and I know, and I would love to hear your opinion on this, many parents don’t wanna repeat that. They’re perhaps in their 30s, 35, they’re raising their kids, they’re like you, like, “How do I not repeat the cycle?”

[00:05:04] Kerry: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s where a lot of this came from, too, ’cause I would get that question from these women as well.

[00:05:13] Kerry: Um, and I think the book is part of that. We can get into that later. Yeah. But my big thing that I always emphasize is language. Mm-hmm. The language that we use around food, around our kids’ bodies, our own bodies, ’cause our kids are always watching us and listening to us. That language piece is so, so, so important, and that’s really where I focus, with all my socials and, and, you know, what I put out there in the world.

[00:05:45] Kerry: It’s the language that we use around these things, that if we can change that, which is not easy, I’m not saying it’s easy. Yeah. Um, but if we can be more aware and start to change our language around our kids, then that is a big step in the right direction to building that foundation for themselves.

[00:06:02] Stephanie: So I don’t wanna put words in your mouth.

[00:06:05] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:06] Stephanie: But are you saying that in order to break, we’ll call it the general s- the generational cycle, right? Mm-hmm. It starts with the parent? changing their relationship to body and food first?

[00:06:21] Kerry: Yeah, because healing yourself is the best gift that you can give your kids. You know, they are, they’re watching us, they’re hearing us speak, and if we’re working on ourselves, then they’re gonna pick up on that.

[00:06:33] Stephanie: Yeah, because it’s gonna be, you’ll have to do a lot of self-monitoring- Mm-hmm … not to talk about your body in a certain way in order to not pass it on. But if you still think a certain way about yourself and food and your body, it’s gonna slip out at some point.

[00:06:47] Kerry: Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

[00:06:48] Stephanie: Right?

[00:06:49] Kerry: Yep.

[00:06:50] Stephanie: Uh, and you say something, and now I’m gonna get you back to the book now, but you say something really interesting about your book is kids don’t need to be taught to trust their body.

[00:07:04] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:05] Stephanie: Talk to us about that.

[00:07:06] Kerry: Yeah. Um- So when, think back to when kids are babies, and even if you don’t have kids you’ll know this- Mm-hmm … that they cry when they’re hungry. You know? They, they have that internal sensation, like, “I’m hungry.” They tell us by crying, and when they’re full they turn their head away or they stop crying.

[00:07:30] Kerry: They don’t second-guess it. That’s sort of built into their system. But somewhere along the way We start to override that, that ability. And what I’ve seen in pediatrics is that sort of preschool age espe- or toddler age when around the dinner table, um, there’s a lot of deve- developmental changes going on, and you’ll see kids that used to eat everything, around that two to three year mark- Mm-hmm

[00:08:03] Kerry: that can change. You know, you- The picky eater, is that what you’re- Yeah … referring to? Yeah. Yep, yep. And but there’s a lot of reasons for it. You know, it’s developmentally normal around that age. Um, kids are learning and wanting to exert their autonomy, and what they put in their mouth is one of the few choices that they get to make in a day, so you get a lot of, a lot of pushback there.

[00:08:25] Kerry: Um, but how are, how parents respond in those moments and over time in that age range can make a huge difference. Um, and I’ve been through it with my, I’m in it right now with my two-year-old and with my four-year-old. It’s so hard. Like, I get where some of these things, like, “One more bite. Finish your plate.

[00:08:47] Kerry: You can’t have dessert until you eat your broccoli.” Eat your vegetables. Yeah. I, I know where it comes from, because I think we forget that a lot of people show their love by providing food for others. I know it’s one way that I show love. So if we cut the apple a certain way that our kid likes it or we let them pick the type of pasta noodle and then they reject it, that feels personal.

[00:09:12] Kerry: It really does. And so a lot of parents panic when this sort of phase comes in, and we start to put the pressure on our kids to eat. And what that’s doing is overriding their signals on what they’re feeling and respecting that versus what their parent is saying they should feel, you know- Mm-hmm … um, in terms of what they’re eating.

[00:09:35] Kerry: Does that make sense?

[00:09:36] Stephanie: Yeah. So what you’re saying is that children are born with the ability to trust their body. That’s an inborn-

[00:09:45] Kerry: Mm-hmm …

[00:09:46] Stephanie: like pre-written, um, book, handbook in their brain, in their body. They know how to do it, but the external input, parents, systems around them, is what overrides this innate ability to trust their body.

[00:10:04] Stephanie: Is that correct?

[00:10:05] Kerry: Yeah, yeah. And it’s not just the parents. I don’t wanna put it all on parents. Okay. It’s society. That’s- It’s diet culture. It’s, it’s all of it, right? Yeah. Um, i- there’s so many messages coming at us saying, you know, “You need this. You need to look this way. I know better than you.” And so that, that self-trust piece is really something that I want to help our kids protect.

[00:10:30] Stephanie: And you give it a specific name, which is very familiar to me, but I’ll introduce it to the group, interoception awareness.

[00:10:37] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:37] Stephanie: Right? Yeah. So you’re saying the book is in part, like, the, the, the reason for the book is to introduce the concept of interoception awareness to children, but I want you to introduce it first to the listener.

[00:10:50] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Parents, grandparents first, so they can understand what they’re… the purpose of the book is. So go ahead. What’s interoception-

[00:10:56] Kerry: Yeah …

[00:10:57] Stephanie: awareness?

[00:10:58] Kerry: Interoception, it’s how we sense what’s happening inside of our bodies. Um, so think of hunger, fullness, if we’re tired, maybe that tightness in our chest if something feels off or wrong.

[00:11:14] Kerry: The ability to tune into those signals, listen to them and trust them, that’s interoception, and that’s the core theme of book one in the Violet Learns series. I thought it was so important as the first book, because that really is the foundational skill, um, that all the other lessons in the series can scaffold of, scaffold off of.

[00:11:39] Stephanie: Let’s get very practical here- Mm-hmm … and give an example. What would interoception awareness look like for a four-year-old?

[00:11:47] Kerry: Yeah. I think for a four-year-old that would be- Eating or asking for seconds because they’re truly hungry.

[00:11:58] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:11:58] Kerry: It could be, um, eating half of th- their dessert and leaving the rest because they’re full.

[00:12:04] Kerry: Um, those are two very simple examples of a kid listening to their hunger and fullness cues and interoception.

[00:12:12] Stephanie: So let’s put that into the example of the, quote, unquote, and I’m look- not even sure it’s the right name, picky eater syndrome. Mm-hmm. But, but I know that’s what people will recognize it as the child.

[00:12:22] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Your two-year-old say, “Nope, not eating vegetables anymore.” Right? Yeah. Is that interoception awareness as well?

[00:12:29] Kerry: That’s a good question. I think interoception in that general sense might be more the hunger, fullness piece. If they’re not wanting to eat the vegetable, I think that’s… it could be part of it, but some of that is just a fearness of new foods, which is totally normal in that age range.

[00:12:48] Kerry: And in that scenario, what I would suggest for parents is to just keep offering it in a very, very pressure-free way. It’s on the plate. They don’t have to eat it. Um, it’s just there. And what’s been shown in the research is that that repetitive exposure, and it’s a lot more than you think it would be, it’s, like, closer to 20 to 30 times versus two or three times- Wow

[00:13:11] Kerry: is what, um, over time will generally lead to that kiddo eventually accepting that food. It really is a long game. You know, it’s we’re playing the long game to preserve that relationship with food.

[00:13:27] Stephanie: I know you said you mentioned the word and I said, ooh, like 20 to 30 time. I don’t think most- Mm-hmm … people understand that.

[00:13:33] Kerry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it can be a really frustrating process. Talking months- I don’t want to… Mm-hmm …

[00:13:38] Stephanie: and months of exposure and being told no, no, no- Mm-hmm … to break through at some point.

[00:13:45] Kerry: Yes. What I was thinking I should say is that for a lot of parents that get concerned, “Is my kid getting enough of what they need?” when this stage happens, a lot of times we focus on that one meal, that one snack. I encourage parents to take a step back and look at what they’re eating over the span of a week, the span of a month.

[00:14:06] Kerry: They’re likely… In, in the large majority of cases, your kid is getting what they need. Um, but when we focus on that one meal or snack, it is very hard to not go down that road of thinking.

[00:14:19] Stephanie: Yeah. So when we think about food, and I’ll stay there before we go to more body image. Mm-hmm. Right? There’s many theory on how to develop an intuitive eater, right?

[00:14:32] Stephanie: But w- I think one of the most predominant theory is to put the food on the table, and based on age groups, allowing them to pick the food they wanna eat to the quantity they need to eat. What’s the general idea you have around how to manage meals and food intake?

[00:14:51] Kerry: Uh, yeah, I mean, that’s a good question.

[00:14:54] Kerry: I generally would say, you know, in my family, my daughters eat what we eat. Um, I might not have the food touching. I might, you know, make it a little more developmentally appropriate there for their age, um, if they don’t want the mixed sort of meals. But they generally eat what we eat. Um, and then it’s that, you know, exposure training like you said, and in term- or like we talked about before.

[00:15:23] Kerry: In terms of amounts, I give them what, in general, I know that they eat on a regular basis, and if they don’t touch it, my rule in our house is dinnertime is family time. They don’t have to eat, but they have to visit. And I would say 95% of the time, especially my oldest daughter, she’s a busy body. She doesn’t love to sit still, but when she’s saying, “Oh, I’m not hungry,” and then we start visiting at the table, and it’s not about the food, most of the time she’ll take a bite.

[00:15:56] Kerry: Um- What do

[00:15:56] Stephanie: you mean visiting?

[00:15:59] Kerry: Talking about our day. Talking- Okay … we sort of say, “What was the, your favorite part of the day? What was, what were you most proud of today?” When we’re sitting at the table, we rarely, if at all, talk about what we’re eating or how much we’re eating. It’s, “How was your day? What was your favorite part?

[00:16:18] Kerry: What do we have going on tomorrow?” It’s really that family time, visiting, talking to each other, spending quality time that’s the focus.

[00:16:28] Stephanie: Social connection.

[00:16:29] Kerry: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:16:31] Stephanie: Because food is more than just nutrition, and I think- Mm-hmm … as a society, we’re socialized to think it’s just nutrition, and I think perhaps that’s why parents are focused, that are they getting enough?

[00:16:42] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:16:43] Stephanie: But a huge chunk of food is also social connection, and that’s what I hear you- Yeah … really emphasize. Like, you’re really teaching that food moment are connection as much as eating.

[00:16:56] Kerry: Absolutely. That’s actually the third book in the series. That’s the focus- Oh, is it? … of the third book, yeah. Yeah. All these things are so tied together, but I, yeah, huge believer in the fact that food is so much more than the nutrients it provides.

[00:17:10] Kerry: It’s love, connection, sharing culture. All of that is important.

[00:17:15] Stephanie: Okay, so let’s dive into body image- Mm-hmm … because that’s another body trust, right?

[00:17:22] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:23] Stephanie: Um, the period of four to seven, right, is the period, and you mention that in the book, that’s not my expertise, that’s you, where children can start developing what is called self-objectification.

[00:17:38] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:39] Stephanie: Right?

[00:17:40] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:17:40] Stephanie: First of all, can you explain what self-objectification it is, and how does that play in the development of a child?

[00:17:46] Kerry: Yeah. It’s, um, it’s this idea of seeing your body from the outside, so monitoring how it looks instead of how it feels. And I sometimes see this in my girls already, and they’re two and four.

[00:18:00] Kerry: Um, the f- my four-year-old has started to say, “Do I look pretty?” all the time. Wow. And her two-year-old- Four years old … four years old, and her younger sister’s picking up on it, so my two-year-old will say it too, “Do I look pretty?” And- In my house, me and my husband, we really try to focus on redirecting that question and saying, “Well, how does, how do your clothes make you feel?

[00:18:29] Kerry: Do you feel pretty? Um, that’s what matters, is how you feel.” Or we’ll, when we see a body, talk about, you know What can that body do? Wow, her legs are so athletic, legs that are so strong that she can run so fast, or arms that can hug. That’s sort of where we try to focus conversations around bodies in our house.

[00:18:52] Kerry: Um, but it is kind of scary. Like, when I was doing some research around the books and what age group I should target to, it’s wild how young kids are picking up on body image concerns, um, these sorts of societal norms and what an ideal body looks like. It’s as young as preschool age. Um, and so, you know, kids as young as three to four are already linking bigger body sizes to negative traits.

[00:19:23] Kerry: So that’s why the younger that we can start talking about these things and being aware about these things, aware of these things, the better, ’cause it’s happening so young.

[00:19:33] Stephanie: There’s so much to unpack here. Mm-hmm. So what I’m hearing you say is that the brain at between four to seven is developing the capacity to perceive yourself on the outside.

[00:19:45] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Irrelevant of the narrative, the brain capacity is getting on board to see yourself as a container, an object of some kind, and then layer at the same time there’s the whole social narrative around bodies and genders and beauty and prettiness, and that’s what children are encoding in their brain, right?

[00:20:07] Stephanie: Yeah. I have a body to be pretty.

[00:20:09] Kerry: Yep. Yeah, and it’s early. I’ve seen it in my own girls.

[00:20:14] Stephanie: And so your approach is to counteract that narrative. You can’t escape them from the narrative they’re gonna hear outside.

[00:20:22] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:20:22] Stephanie: But it’s to present them with another narrative. That’s the approach you

[00:20:29] Kerry: Yeah … have found.

[00:20:29] Kerry: And that’s, that’s my approach with everything diet culture, right? Diet culture’s not going away. Yeah. And so I can’t protect my kids from everything. What I can give them is a foundation and a counter-narrative to lean on so that they start to question some of these things as they get older. And hopefully the trust is built there where they bring them to me to talk about them.

[00:20:50] Stephanie: And to question them.

[00:20:52] Kerry: Exactly, yep.

[00:20:53] Stephanie: Not as good or bad, but, like, critical thinking. Yeah. That’s what I think is really needed, is teaching our children critical thinking. This is my opinion as non-parent.

[00:21:02] Kerry: Yep.

[00:21:02] Stephanie: But if we can teach critical thinking, then they can start dismantling not just diet culture, all the other system that will come along the way.

[00:21:09] Kerry: Yep, 100% agree.

[00:21:12] Stephanie: So how for s- for grandma, mom- Mm-hmm … that are still healing their relationship to food and body, and they’re hearing children say that, what do we do? How do we approach that?

[00:21:31] Kerry: Saying things like, “Do I look pretty?”

[00:21:35] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:21:35] Kerry: Yeah. I think, um, again, being careful of our own language, how we talk about ourselves- Mm-hmm

[00:21:44] Kerry: and ask questions about ourselves is important, but we can also do, um, the redirect, or really think about what was coming out of our mouth when we talk to our kids. So instead of, “You look so pretty,” “You look like you’re having so much fun up there.” Or, “Oh, you’re, you’re so skinny,” or, “You’ve gotten so big,” “Oh, I’m so happy to see you.”

[00:22:04] Kerry: Like, we just don’t have to comment on bodies at all. It doesn’t need to be a thing. Um, or, “I love that” instead of, “I love that dress.” You know, “I love that outfit. What made you pick that today?” Uh, so those sorts of reframes that are simple, but again, not easy to do, ’cause some of this stuff is just word vomit coming out of our mouth ’cause it’s how we grew up and the environment we were in.

[00:22:28] Kerry: Um, but those words that we use can make a big difference.

[00:22:32] Stephanie: And would it be right to say that it’s not about telling them it’s bad to comment on bodies? Because I see… I, I observe a lot of that, right? Yeah. “Oh, we don’t say that.” Like, is that the best way to redirect?

[00:22:50] Kerry: That’s not how I do it. I just, um… ‘Cause I think, again, they’re gonna be exposed to this sort of stuff, and I think just calling it what it is and not having any moral judgment attached.

[00:23:03] Kerry: Like, yeah, it’s a bigger body. Move on. You know?

[00:23:08] Stephanie: Just like it’s a tall body. Yeah. “Oh,

[00:23:09] Kerry: she’s

[00:23:09] Stephanie: so tall,” right?

[00:23:10] Kerry: Exactly. You just don’t make it a thing. Um, it’s the same thing with foods. You know, I think labeling foods good and bad is not something that we do in our house, and that moral value is something we want to avoid attached to foods.

[00:23:26] Kerry: So same thing, like I would never call a cookie junk food or chips junk food or bad food. I would just say, “That’s a cookie.” You know, we don’t need to, um, give that moral weight to anything food or body related.

[00:23:41] Stephanie: Yeah, because I’m a, so I’m a cognitive behavior coach. I use a lot of, um, that approach. When we shame words, when we shame behavior, then the people, even the adult human will retrieve because- Mm-hmm

[00:23:54] Stephanie: they’re being bad, right? Yeah. They’re being, like they’re doing something bad, so they retrieve from sharing, from like doing the behavior, doing it in secret. Whereby when it’s neutral, then it allows for discussion, it allows for examination as opposed to shame and retrieval.

[00:24:13] Kerry: Yeah, and I think what’s different for kids too at that younger age range is they will see a good or a bad, quote-unquote, food choice as if, if they want that bad food as I am bad or I am good.

[00:24:30] Kerry: They internalize that, and that makes the message sort of that we don’t wanna deliver even stronger, right?

[00:24:40] Stephanie: So how do you see the role of the book in the learning of children? How does that come together?

[00:24:49] Kerry: Yeah. What’s, what’s the- Really good question. So I was really intentional when I chose to write, A, a picture book, but how I did it as well.

[00:25:02] Kerry: With kids of the four to seven age range, preschool age, we know children learn through stories and through symbolic play way more than logic or reasoning. If you’ve had a toddler, you know this. They are… You can’t ration your way out of a meltdown. Um, and so a picture book at bedtime is actually the developmentally appropriate way to deliver or the vehicle for these messages, way more effective than, like, a lecture or a talk at the dinner table.

[00:25:33] Kerry: Um, and I cr- tried to create the books in… with three layers in mind. So first off, it had to be entertaining for kids because I want it to be something that they wanna ask for and read over and over and over again. So the pictures are beautiful. It’s rhyming, um, which are stories that I like to read. And then the second layer is that I wanted it to be practical, have practical takeaways, and be a tool for parents to use.

[00:26:04] Kerry: Um, and so throughout the book, there is a mantra that’s repeated three times, and there’s a mantra in each book in the series. But for Violet Learns to Pause, the mantra is, “Pause and breathe, then feel inside. Your tummy’s voice will be your guide.” And so the hope is that repeating that mantra and practicing with, like pausing and breathing with your child as you read through the story, that will help them build a skill to pause and check in, and then that can be shared language for the family at the dinner table.

[00:26:42] Kerry: Because when I was working with women who didn’t wanna pass this down to their kids, the biggest thing I would get is, “Kerri, I know what not to say. Like I know don’t say finish your plate, I know don’t push vegetables, but I don’t have something to say as a substitute. Like that’s just what comes out of my, my head.”

[00:27:04] Kerry: Um, and so I know when it’s 6:00 PM and you have crying kids and you’re just trying to get through dinner, the last thing you’re gonna remember is what to say in those hard moments. So I was hoping that this mantra would be that shared language between your family, and if you don’t know what to say, you can say, “What’s your tummy telling you?”

[00:27:22] Kerry: Because you’ve read that story over and over with your kids. And then hopefully your kid will respond because they’ve read it, or maybe they’ll start pulling that language themselves without being prompted. I’ve actually seen that with my own kids, and I’ve had some parents who’ve read the book with their kids say, “Oh, my kid’s starting to say, ‘Mommy, my tummy is telling me this,’” which has been super cool.

[00:27:43] Kerry: So that was the intention behind the book. And then there’s notes to grownups in the back that also have ways that you can apply the book’s concepts and have conversations with your kids to cert- start talking about some of these things so it can all be very practical.

[00:28:01] Stephanie: So conversation starters.

[00:28:02] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:28:04] Stephanie: I love that because it’s a dual tool.

[00:28:07] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. We’ve got like the imagery and the way the n- the narration of the book is for children so they can learn. Mm-hmm. And then it gives you a tagline, like a how to have this conversation at the table. So it’s both for the parent and the child. It’s a brilliant concept.

[00:28:22] Kerry: Thank you. Yeah. I, I really wanted it to be story forward, so the lesson’s in there, but it doesn’t, you know, beat you over the head with it, um, because I feel like that’s what kids respond to best and what they’re gonna ask to, to hear over and over again.

[00:28:38] Kerry: But yeah, the practical piece for the parents was really important to me.

[00:28:42] Stephanie: So there’s three books in the series, is that correct?

[00:28:44] Kerry: There’s gonna be six.

[00:28:46] Stephanie: Okay. Tell us more.

[00:28:47] Kerry: Yeah. There’s gonna be six. So the first one’s all about interoception. That book is out already. The next book is focused on that good or bad food framing.

[00:28:56] Stephanie: Okay.

[00:28:57] Kerry: So getting rid of that good and bad food labeling, and instead focusing on the sensory experience of eating and the, how that can be fun. You know, the colors on your plate, the crunch of a cracker, um- The, uh, all of those sensory experiences. The third book is all about how food is more than the nutrients it provides.

[00:29:21] Kerry: It’s really a source of loving connection for people around the dinner table. And that book is very special to me because it sort of walks through, Violet walks through food memories. Um, and those memories are personal to me because I was writing it sort of thinking about my own food memories. And at the end she realizes the food was special because of who she shared it with, not just the food itself.

[00:29:49] Kerry: Um, book four is all about body neutrality. So, um, this idea that our body is a vehicle for all the things we experience in life. We don’t need to judge it for what it looks like Number five is about moving joyfully. Mm-hmm. So moving because it feels good, not because we should exercise. That’s the focus of book five.

[00:30:16] Kerry: And then the final book is Violet Learns to Rest, so seeing, um, rest as a form of self-care, not something that we need to earn. You know, that’s the focus of the last book. So that’s the series all tied up in a little bow.

[00:30:34] Stephanie: So I have more question, but I just want for people listening right now, where can they get the book?

[00:30:40] Stephanie: And right now we’re, we’re recording on September the 25th. Which book is available, and when will the remainder of the series be available?

[00:30:49] Kerry: Yeah. So the first book, Violet Learns to Pause, is available on Amazon. You can find it today by just searching the name or going to my website violetlearns.com, and there’s links there.

[00:31:03] Kerry: Um, the rest of the books I’m hoping to get out in sort of of an every three to four-month cadence. We’ll see. Working with an illustrator takes time, so it’s kind of a, a joint venture, so it’ll depend on her timeline, but I’m hoping to get book two out before Christmas. If not, it’ll be shortly after that in the new year.

[00:31:23] Stephanie: Oh, that’s amazing. Okay.

[00:31:25] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:26] Stephanie: Um, I wanna bring you on to another conversation.

[00:31:31] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:31] Stephanie: Uh, because I would love your expert input on GLP-1, because at the time of recording this, there’s, there’s a lot of news around GLP-1 and children.

[00:31:44] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:44] Stephanie: Right? Um, so earlier this week there was research. They’re finally starting to look at nutritional deficiencies in children, and they’re seeing obviously nutritional deficiency in children, but- Mm-hmm

[00:31:57] Stephanie: what are your thoughts on children, young children? It’s, like, the study focused on children from the age of 8 to 11. Like, that’s very young.

[00:32:06] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:32:07] Stephanie: And GLP-1. What are your thoughts on that?

[00:32:11] Kerry: Good question. So I, I have sort of a personal story related to this, and- Ooh … I’m not an expert on GLP-1s. I just wanna preface that.

[00:32:21] Kerry: Yeah. But I grew up as a bigger kid at that age range. I would honestly say between the ages of 8 and pre-puberty, so, like, 12, 13, I lived in a larger body. I was so lucky with my environment that I felt like my self-trust was protected. You know, my parents never talked about my body or my weight. No coaches, no teachers, no friends ever made me feel different.

[00:32:50] Kerry: I never had a doctor point out my weight, at least not in front of me. Um, so I feel so grateful that I had that experience because I hit puberty, and I think I grew four or five inches in one summer, and sort of my weight to height ratio leveled out. Everything was normal. And while I was living in a bigger body between the ages of 8 and 12, like, I was a happy kid.

[00:33:16] Kerry: I was super active. I was eating really well-balanced home-cooked meals. I had a lot of friends. Like- Other than my weight being a little bit higher, like I had very healthy habits. So, um, that was just how my body needed to grow in that age range and, you know, things eventually leveled out. So I think that’s my concern with putting kids on these medications at that age is, you know, weight gain pre-puberty is normal.

[00:33:49] Kerry: That is something that, you know, our body needs to do to prepare for these p- potential growth spurts. And I… So I’m not, I’m not completely anti-medication, but I think what we need to look at first is what are their health habits, you know? It’s, it’s very different putting a kid on a medication, um, when we’re looking at, you know, the sleep, the food, the exercise habits, the family environment versus not.

[00:34:22] Kerry: So that would be my answer.

[00:34:24] Stephanie: That’s very, very intelligent answer because, and I’ll just make the link to all of us who ended up in your care that we’re telling you that we had a very early on event that taught us to be, have a disordered relationship to food.

[00:34:42] Kerry: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:43] Stephanie: I know for me looking back, if I would have not been commented on my body or sent to Weight Watcher, I probably would have done like you’ve…

[00:34:52] Stephanie: Like I’m six foot tall now. Yeah. And I would have grown, and perhaps none of the, none of those 25 years of dieting would have ever happened.

[00:35:02] Kerry: Yeah. It’s hard to know, right? But-

[00:35:03] Stephanie: We don’t know, but there’s chances.

[00:35:05] Kerry: Yeah, totally.

[00:35:07] Stephanie: So but I wanna lead you into back to the conversation where we’re trying to change the narrative, like parents are trying to change the narrative, but they end up in the care of a medical provider who comments on their children’s body- Mm-hmm

[00:35:25] Stephanie: or wants to put them on a GLP-1 or recommend GLP-1. Mm-hmm. How, as a parent, do we process this and handle this? Any thoughts for the listener?

[00:35:35] Kerry: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think in general, having open discussions with your healthcare provider when your child is not in the room- Okay … about the fact that we don’t want to talk about weight in front of my kid.

[00:35:53] Kerry: Like, if you have concerns about it, I’m happy to chat and listen. Can we keep that discussion between you and me and not talk about it while my child is in the room? I think that’s a very valid thing to ask your healthcare provider before any of this gets started ideally. Um- GLP-1 or not because that is, can be a really sensitive, vulnerable topic for some kids, especially those living in a larger body.

[00:36:20] Kerry: You know, they know. We don’t need to point it out to them. Um, and having to sit through a doctor’s appointment where the focus is their weight is not something I would recommend, and as a parent, if the doctor has concerns, then let’s, let’s get them out of the room first, would be my number one piece of advice.

[00:36:40] Kerry: And in terms of GLP-1, I would just say, you know, every, every situation’s different, obviously. Um, but talking about what the options are, what the potential risks, side effects might be, um, and really having… This might not be for your healthcare provider. I don’t know if that would be their area of specialty, but, um- Being very conscious of the impacts on mental health related to food and body image, right?

[00:37:12] Kerry: Because as you said, those things start, started early for you. It’s been the same with a lot of women I’ve worked with. Um, and like what are the… weighing the pros and cons in that regard. You know, what are the health concerns with my child’s weight? Could those change during or after puberty? We don’t even know how the drugs will affect puberty.

[00:37:36] Kerry: So there are, there are some risks to really ask questions and, and go in fully informed before you make that decision for your child.

[00:37:45] Stephanie: I love that. So boundaries. Yeah. Then that, that’s the number one. Yeah. Like set the tone separately, m- maybe even when you enter the relationship with the medical provider from the get-go before the child even comes in the room, “I’m in an environment where we don’t talk about bodies, we don’t talk, we don’t comment, so I would ask to respect that, and are you able to do that?

[00:38:06] Stephanie: And if you cannot, then let’s split way right away. Let me go to another provider.”

[00:38:11] Kerry: Yep.

[00:38:11] Stephanie: But establishing strong boundaries to then bring the child into the room or to the care of the provider.

[00:38:19] Kerry: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s a very fair ask for your healthcare provider.

[00:38:24] Stephanie: And then consider when the GLP… And I think it’s important also to talk about that.

[00:38:30] Stephanie: The decision is not the provider’s decision.

[00:38:33] Kerry: Mm-mm.

[00:38:34] Stephanie: It’s the parent’s decision. Would you agree with that?

[00:38:37] Kerry: Yeah, absolutely, ’cause you’re advocating for your kid, and you’re making the best choice for your child based on the information that you have at hand, which you’re getting from your healthcare provider, um, and wherever your other sources might be.

[00:38:52] Stephanie: And get another opinion. That would be my other adv- and I know I do that personally for me. Like I get- Totally … a diagnosis from one provider, then I go get another, and then get like other option. Mm-hmm. Like what’s the other solution if this is a concern medically, not just weight-based, but medically, right?

[00:39:11] Stephanie: This is a concern. What else could there be as an option? And then third, consider long-term side effects.

[00:39:17] Kerry: Yes. I think that’s the biggest thing, is, um, what are the side effects that aren’t always talked about long-term, like, you know, we’ve been discussing throughout this conversation.

[00:39:29] Stephanie: Yeah,, the side effect that you had, that I had, that all the people that we work with- Mm-hmm

[00:39:34] Stephanie: am I setting up my child to have side effect beyond just the weight long-term? Yeah. And is it worth it to the current health concern that we have? It’s, and that’s what prescription’s all about, right? We always- Yeah … weigh in and weigh out the- benefit than the risk.

[00:39:51] Kerry: Yeah, and I, I think the, the conversation around if you as a parent are on a GLP-1, how we talk about that with our kids- Ooh, yeah

[00:40:00] Kerry: too. I mean, like, I’m not anti-medication. Like, you do you, whatever works best for you. What I am really sort of sticking to my guns about is how we talk about these things in front of our kids. And whether or not you’re on one, like, our kids are gonna know what GLP-1s are sooner than later. Like, it’s everywhere, right?

[00:40:22] Kerry: Um, so how we talk about it is important. But what I would say is if you are on a GLP-1, for whatever reason, you need to talk to your kid about it, even if they’re young. But keep it simple, and keep it about your health, not your size, right? So something like, you know, “I’m taking a medication my doctor and I chose together.

[00:40:50] Kerry: It’s something we’re working on, but it changes how hungry I feel, so you might see me eat less. That’s the medicine. Your tummy will tell you when you’re done.” So deciphering, you know, and speaking out loud that we separate our body signals from theirs, because we talked about how important modeling is.

[00:41:12] Kerry: If your three-year-old sees you all of a sudden have, you know, a much smaller plate at dinner, they might think, “Oh, I guess that’s how much I need to eat.” So that’s why talking about it is important. And then still sitting down to eat together. Even if you’re having less- Mm … you know, that those family meals are just as important.

[00:41:31] Kerry: Um, so I think how we talk about our kids, how we talk about GLP-1s with our kids, especially if you as a parent are on one, is something to keep in mind.

[00:41:42] Stephanie: I think that’s a brilliant angle I didn’t even think about. And there’s also, there’s GLP-1 for what I call medical reason that would not necessarily change the size of the body, right?

[00:41:52] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. People that take it for diabetes reason- Yep … it’s just like taking any other metformin or high blood pressure pill. It’s just a medication. Yep. And that’s, I think that’s how we can neutralize it versus, “I’m taking a drug to shrink my body.”

[00:42:05] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:42:06] Stephanie: It’s a medicine like any other medicine that people take, Tylenol, Advil.

[00:42:10] Stephanie: It’s just a medicine.

[00:42:11] Kerry: Yep.

[00:42:14] Stephanie: And not avoiding the topic.

[00:42:16] Kerry: No, ’cause your kid’s gonna pick up on it, you know? Right. Even if your body does change or doesn’t change, like, the GLP-1s affect hunger and fullness, so your eating patterns are definitely gonna change, and they’re gonna notice. So I’m a big proponent for talking about these things, getting ahead of them, because kids will make up their own narrative in their head if we don’t talk about it.

[00:42:40] Kerry: Um, and I would rather, you know, dictate the narrative instead of have them make up what they’re thinking is going on.

[00:42:52] Stephanie: And it brings me another example. We’ll go back, and I, I would love to get your thoughts on that. Mm-hmm. When children comes back home after a day of school, they had the, had the babysitter or whatever, and they say, “This kid told me my body is big, that I’m fat,” right?

[00:43:08] Kerry: Yes.

[00:43:08] Stephanie: So like how do we react to that? What is… Do we preempt? Do we acknowledge? How do we respond? What do we tell our kid?

[00:43:18] Kerry: Yeah, I think, um, I’ve always taken the approach of- I know as parents we wanna cushion the blow, right? We hate discomfort. We don’t want our kids to be uncomfortable. We don’t wanna be uncomfortable.

[00:43:33] Kerry: So the gut reaction even I had right there was saying, “Oh, honey, you’re not fat. You’re not big.” But that is not what I would recommend doing. I would get curious. That’s always my go-to is, like, “Oh, interesting.” Like, “How did that make you feel?” Why do you think you felt that way? And sort of digging into what their reaction was.

[00:44:03] Kerry: I think as parents we alw- also assume, like, how they’re feeling when they hear these things. If you ask, “Oh, how did that make me feel?” Some kids will be like, “Eh, I don’t know, fine,” and they’ll run off and play. So we don’t need to make it a bigger deal than it maybe was for them. But if they are upset and they can try to verbalize why, then we can sort of dig into, you know, everybody is different.

[00:44:32] Kerry: Different bodies aren’t more worthy than others. I like to relate it to shoe size. You know, everyone has a different shoe size. We wouldn’t wanna change a size 7 to a size 12, so everybody has a different body size. Why does everyone wanna change? Why would we wanna change our body from what we are to something else?

[00:44:53] Kerry: You know, that’s sort of how I have always talked about it with younger kids. Um, but that’s what I do. I would get curious. That’s always my go-to first thing when those- Yeah … sort of comments come up.

[00:45:09] Stephanie: And I wanna bring you back to the first layer where you said, like, our gut wants to tell us, “Well, that’s not true.”

[00:45:15] Kerry: Yes.

[00:45:16] Stephanie: But by doing that, you’re teaching… Yeah, unconsciously, in my opinion-

[00:45:23] Kerry: Mm-hmm …

[00:45:23] Stephanie: as somebody who coach at the other end, you’re teaching children to think it’s not good to be fat. That’s why we’re telling them, “Oh, it’s not true.”

[00:45:32] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:45:32] Stephanie: We’re unconsciously teaching them that being fat is terrible. Yes. But y- it’s not true, you’re not.

[00:45:38] Kerry: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, and we… That’s not something we wanna reinforce, right?

[00:45:43] Stephanie: And v- to me, that’s why we need to talk about GLP-1, and we need to talk about weight loss, and I’m not sure at which development stage that’s appropriate- Mm-hmm … but needs to be because that’s the reality.

[00:45:54] Kerry: Yep. Yep.

[00:45:55] Stephanie: We can’t avoid not talking about body changing and people wanting and actively losing weight.

[00:46:01] Stephanie: Yeah. We need to have this conversation.

[00:46:03] Kerry: Yeah, I agree.

[00:46:04] Stephanie: What age is that? Yeah. That their brain is formed to think about that, you know?

[00:46:10] Kerry: Yeah, like, for the younger kids, I would just, you know, keep it as simple as possible. The medicine changes how my tummy feels. You listen to your tummy. Sit and still eat together at the table.

[00:46:25] Kerry: As they get older, like- I don’t know, tweens and teens, they’re gonna know- Yes … what Ozempic is. Like, they already know at that point. So I would ask, you know, “What have you heard about these medications?” And then, you know, “My doctor chose it for my health, but my worth doesn’t change with my size. Neither does yours.”

[00:46:47] Kerry: You know, in effect, it might change my body, it might change how much I’m eating. Um, again, keep it on the health, not the size. But if they do notice and comment on your body changing, um, then that’s when you can talk about, you know, body size doesn’t dictate worth.

[00:47:09] Stephanie: And it’s even outside of GLP-1. I mean, if you- Mm-hmm

[00:47:11] Stephanie: go into the tweens, it’s skinny talk, right? They’re on TikTok. Yes. There’s… Like, forget GLP-1, they’re gonna see thin bodies and thin bodies being revered and like- Yeah … this is a whole new level of conversation, I can only assume, as parents. Yeah. And I know you’re not there yet, but that’s a whole-

[00:47:27] Kerry: Yeah …

[00:47:28] Stephanie: new world.

[00:47:28] Kerry: Yeah, I’m not there yet, but I’m already thinking about it, Stephanie. I- With three girls, that’s- Yeah … that’s why I’m trying to start this work young, right? Because the longer that they hear the messages about body neutrality and trusting themselves and, you know, seeing food where they have a peaceful relationship with it, it’s not something that they struggle with or have guilt or shame around, my hope is that when they get to that tween-teen age, there’s less soil for those diet culture roots to take root in, and they have this counter-narrative like we’ve talked about to push back on some of these things with.

[00:48:13] Kerry: And I’m a strong believer that if we’ve talked about this early, then my hope is they’ll come to me when some of these things happen or when they hear or see something that they’re confused about and we can pick it apart together. We can poke holes, because it won’t be this taboo topic that sometimes food and bodies feels like.

[00:48:34] Kerry: Um, you know, it can be feel very vulnerable to talk about these things, especially as a teen or tween, if you’re going- Yeah … through puberty and body changes, right? So that is the hope, to plant these seeds really early so we have time to have this counter-narrative develop.

[00:48:55] Stephanie: I love the analogy of the roots, like having a soil, a self-esteem soil.

[00:48:59] Stephanie: We didn’t even talk about self-esteem right now- Mm-hmm … but building up self-esteem outside of bodies, right? So the soil is there to be able to build the, the roots that will be able to pick apart socialization.

[00:49:13] Kerry: Yep.

[00:49:15] Stephanie: And I think that’s why it’s so important not to n- to say dieting is bad or losing weight’s bad, because when they do get confronted, when their girlfriend or their best friend starts dieting, the open communication won’t be as strong for them to bring that to you because you’ve shamed- Yeah

[00:49:34] Stephanie: people who are losing weight or being on GLP before they heard you say it, and they won’t bring that conversation to you.

[00:49:41] Kerry: Yep. Yep, that’s the hope. And, you know, being a mom of girls, I’m always thinking about, how can I make sure they still talk to me when they’re older, you know? Mm-hmm. I was s- I was so great with my mom.

[00:49:53] Kerry: We had an awesome re- open relationship growing up, so I’m not super concerned, but I’ve heard stories, so that’s always in the back of my mind.

[00:50:02] Stephanie: Well, I, the links of the book are gonna be in the show notes, but I just wanna commend you for doing this work-

[00:50:10] Kerry: Aw,

[00:50:10] Stephanie: thank you … and putting out tools Tools both for the children-

[00:50:16] Kerry: Mm-hmm

[00:50:16] Stephanie: and for the parent to have this new conversation, because let’s be honest, this is off trend. This is innovative way of thinking about foods and body, and putting the tools out in the hands of parenting, parents.

[00:50:30] Kerry: Oh. Well, thank you. It’s, it’s been a lot of work, but it’s, it’s coming from a place where I know I want this for my daughters, so I figured a lot of other parents and families probably want the same for their kids.

[00:50:45] Kerry: And I’m hopeful that, yeah, it, it, it does some good.

[00:50:50] Stephanie: Thank you very much for your time. Um, and we’ll put the show notes out with all the links in there, and I hope people go grab the entire series. And I also wanna comment, like, and perhaps one last question. Mm-hmm. I have a older audience also listen to this- Yeah

[00:51:06] Stephanie: like people in their 50s and 60s. How do you see grandparents play a role in this with those books?

[00:51:13] Kerry: Yeah. I, I think they’re a great thing that you could still have on your kitchen table when there’s sleepovers. If we’re, um, you know, trying to change this narrative, grandparents have a huge influence. Like, my kids’ grandparents are very involved in their lives.

[00:51:33] Kerry: They’re there a lot of times at the dinner table. You know, I think it’s a really great thing to introduce to the, to the family, and have that neutral language. And, um, yeah, it’s, it’s appropriate for anyone in the family to get these conversations going. And the, the book is a really great way to do it because it is a story, right?

[00:51:58] Kerry: It’s not… We’re not teaching a lesson, we’re not lecturing, we’re not bulldozing a parenting technique. It’s a bedtime story we’re reading with our grandkids. And if something starts to stick for the kids, then, then that’s hopefully the gift of self-trust that we can give them and get the ball rolling.

[00:52:17] Stephanie: It’s also a great Christmas gift.

[00:52:19] Kerry: Yeah, absolutely. ‘

[00:52:20] Stephanie: Cause Christmas right around the corner, right? Mm-hmm. We’re putting this out in October. Christmas around the corner. It’s a great way of introducing the conversation.

[00:52:27] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:52:28] Stephanie: Without imposing.

[00:52:29] Kerry: Exactly. That’s a good thing, right? Yeah. It’s just a story. So it’s a great gentle nudge.

[00:52:34] Stephanie: Okay. I’ll let you go. Thank you very much for your presence.

[00:52:37] Kerry: Thank you for having me.

[00:52:42] Stephanie: If you’re loving what you’re learning on the podcast, you have to come and check out Confident, my program on body acceptance and the confidence that grows from it. Come to our website to stephaniedodier.com/confident. This way you can take the concept that I teaching you on the podcast further into actual application in your life so you can feel confident, stop worrying about your weight, other people’s opinion, and care for your wellbeing without weight loss.

[00:53:16] Stephanie: Come and join me and other women learning how to reshape your confidence, not your body. I’ll see you there