488-Grieving Your Past Business in the GLP-1 Era with Hilary Kinavey

How do weight-neutral clinicians market their practice during the GLP-1 era?

Weight-neutral and non-diet clinicians are seeing lower client numbers and thinner marketing results as GLP-1 medications dominate wellness marketing and social algorithms deprioritize body-positive and fat-inclusive content. The shift is not a sign of failed marketing. It reflects a landscape where platforms and advertising systems now favor content aligned with weight-loss messaging, leaving clinicians who reject that framing with less algorithmic reach.

The most effective response is not to abandon marketing but to change how it works. Building an owned email list, rather than relying solely on social platforms, protects a clinician’s audience from algorithm changes. Personal storytelling and visible, human-forward content currently outperform purely clinical or educational posts, because audiences are drawn to connection and realness over polished authority.

Marketing can remain ethical without becoming passive. Using compelling hooks or consistent messaging is not inherently manipulative if the underlying offer is genuinely helpful. The distinction lies in substance: a hook that reflects real value is different from one built on shame or false promises.

Clinicians can also treat the emotional side of this shift as real and worth addressing. Grief and shame around declining income are common but rarely discussed openly. Naming those feelings, rather than carrying them in isolation, often restores the capacity to take action and adapt a business model to current conditions.

Transcript

[00:00:03] Stephanie: Welcome to the podcast, Hillary.

[00:00:06] Hilary: Thank you. Th- thanks so much for having me.

[00:00:08] Stephanie: You’re very welcome. I’m gonna introduce Hillary for everyone before we get started. Hillary is a therapist and co-founder of the Center for Body Trust.

[00:00:17] Stephanie: She has an expertise in helping people with… I love this in your bio, your cultural stories about body, food, health, and worth. Like that- Mm-hmm … like, like it’s very powerful. Um, she’s also the creator of Amber, and that’s why she’s here today, where she helps professional develop the business side of their work, and that’s what I wanna have a conversation with Hillary.

[00:00:44] Stephanie: So again, welcome to the podcast. And I was just telling Hillary, um, her partner in her business, the Center for Body Trust, was on the podcast. Anybody wants to trace back, episode 227. Um, and it’s, it’s a great setup for [00:01:00] the first question I have for you, because she was here in 2020 when it was the peak of the anti-diet coming to birth into this world, right?

[00:01:14] Stephanie: Everybody was becoming aware of intuitive eating and non-diet, anti-diet, and, um, things were different. Things were different- Mm-hmm … back then that they are now. That’s

[00:01:27] Hilary: true.

[00:01:28] Stephanie: From a business perspective, as always- Mm-hmm … for this conversation, how are you seeing- Mm-hmm … that in your world? What are you hearing, seeing, observing?

[00:01:36] Hilary: I think it feels really confusing to folks, I think. Um, and I think because business, our businesses scare us so much- Mm-hmm … um, that we tend to, I think with a lot of clinicians, I see that we tend to be like, either things are okay or things are absolutely not okay. And so I think things are [00:02:00] shifting, as they often do, and I think that, um, we are, you know, being tasked with learning this different terrain.

[00:02:10] Hilary: And for those of us who do anti-diet work, you know, we’re looking at a terrain that is dominated by GLP-1 for weight loss, um, marketing and false promises, and, um- I don’t know, grooming almost. And so- Mm-hmm … I think, w- I think GLP-1s have their place for people who benefit- Yeah … from them, um, because of a diagnosis or a condition.

[00:02:40] Hilary: I think the, uh, so but I really want us to be able to discern the difference between talking about the GLP-1 landscape as it’s being marketed for, um, weight loss, and the impact that’s having on body liberation.

[00:02:59] Stephanie: Well, that’s like a [00:03:00] big intro. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot. Like, there’s so many things to pick apart here.

[00:03:05] Hilary: Uh-huh.

[00:03:06] Stephanie: Um, so I did a big series on, it was called Beyond GLP-1, where I brought in… We dissected the concept of GLP-1 within the philosophy of weight neutral health, and I would everyone who, who’s coming into this podcast to go back, scroll up the feed, you will see a series with, uh, people like Regan Chastain.

[00:03:26] Stephanie: Like, we- Mm-hmm … really deep dive into what does it mean from a weight neutral health. And then we all came to the conclusion that there’s a positive to GLP-1, which is for some medical condition. We know for sure type 2 diabetes, there’s a role. But the vast majority of people using it in, right now, at least 2026, is for aesthetic weight loss.

[00:03:49] Hilary: Yep. Yep.

[00:03:50] Stephanie: And I think that’s really, I think that’s what, in my eyes, I, I think that’s part of where, I hate to call it the heydays, but the peak [00:04:00] of the anti-diet awareness movement is really being, like, there’s a heading down, I’m gonna call it. Like, it, the curve is going down. Um-

[00:04:12] Hilary: It’s being transformed. Um- Oh,

[00:04:14] Stephanie: I love that

[00:04:14] Hilary: you know, Dana and I, uh, a- and against our will, right? Like, you know, there’s a lot of grief for many of us in this movement right now because we were seeing changes and headway, and it’s really, really sad to not have that around us in the same way right now. And I also think, um, it, it, this moment in time and the way weight loss is being kind of magically discussed is, for me, who’s, who’s been doing this work for 25 years, is, is pulling me back into the earliest conversations I was having-

[00:04:59] Stephanie: Mm

[00:04:59] Hilary: as a [00:05:00] clinician before there really was a movement that was trying to organize around the way we talk about this and the way we hold these processes. And so I, I think I’m reflecting that those of us in this field need such an incredibly wide, deep skill set.

[00:05:24] Stephanie: Mm.

[00:05:24] Hilary: Because the, in some, in many ways, the conversations haven’t changed.

[00:05:29] Stephanie: No.

[00:05:29] Hilary: Like, we’re having the same conversations. Um, but what has been disappeared by the marketing and the false hope and the idea that there is, um, the magic pill has arrived, m- the magic- Yeah … injection has arrived, that, um, that people’s relationships with their bodies and with food are still in need of healing work.

[00:05:57] Stephanie: Mm.

[00:05:58] Hilary: That hasn’t changed. Yeah. [00:06:00] But the way we were talking about it as a liberation movement probably doesn’t meet those people in this moment very well.

[00:06:08] Stephanie: No. And, and it’s not a discourse that the various, we’ll call them marketing platform, the various platform where in the past we were welcome to share- Yeah

[00:06:22] Stephanie: our narrative and our options-

[00:06:26] Hilary: Yep …

[00:06:27] Stephanie: the, those platform are not welcoming to that, be it the algorithm or just the conversation- Mm-hmm … itself.

[00:06:34] Hilary: Yeah. Let’s not leave the algorithm out of this, right? ‘

[00:06:38] Stephanie: Cause the algorithm right now, like, it’s just, it’s not welcoming to that narrative. Like, it just, fun for fact for people, like, I, I used to do a lot of paid advertisement.

[00:06:48] Stephanie: That was how I, like, kept up the flow of people in my business, and I’d- Mm … stopped doing it because it, it was very, uh, ineffective. And I tried it- Why? … just last week. [00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Hilary: Uh-huh.

[00:07:00] Stephanie: And it, it’s worse than ever because as a fat person, putting your picture and claiming your fatness- Uh-huh … and helping people- Mm-hmm

[00:07:08] Stephanie: as a fat person, not going completely against, like, like, my f- comments section- Oh … on my ads were just, like, right-wing manosphere, just, like, terrible. I’m sure they did. And I had to shut them down because it’s just, like, the algorithm was pushing it to those people as if they were potentially my customer.

[00:07:29] Stephanie: I’m like…

[00:07:30] Hilary: Yeah. So the algorithm didn’t know what to do with you.

[00:07:34] Stephanie: And I think it’s a great reflection to this conversation of business and marketing. Like- Yeah … people don’t know what to do with us.

[00:07:40] Hilary: No. And, you know, um, I love us, but, uh, you know, those of us trained as clinicians aren’t nec- have a lot of beliefs and not a lot of information about how businesses, how to take care of our businesses and how to take care of ourselves in them and, and how to, [00:08:00] um, and how evolving our work is not necessarily, um- a bad thing about us or suspect or something.

[00:08:10] Hilary: It’s, it’s, you know, capitalism. It’s surviving in this culture. It’s participating in commerce, which isn’t always the same as capitalism, right? So like, um, we, we are kinda getting screwed by all of this because, you know, it- we don’t have a m- a movement upholding what we are offering to people. And so we’re having to talk about this really differently to find the audience that needs us.

[00:08:43] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:08:43] Hilary: The nice thing about our work, though-

[00:08:45] Stephanie: Mm-hmm …

[00:08:46] Hilary: is I have a belief that our marketing is really helpful to people. So while lots of clinicians get like a real ick from the idea of marketing, and I understand why, and especially based [00:09:00] on your story about like trying to make ads work. Argh. Yeah. Um.

[00:09:05] Stephanie: I call it the wrong side of the internet, but my- when my- Exactly

[00:09:09] Stephanie: stuff falls on the wrong side of the internet, it’s like it’s a whole world that I don’t have usually in, right? And all my personal growth skills and all my personal work- Yeah … just get … comes back up, right?

[00:09:22] Hilary: Yep, and it’s so triggering. Yeah.

[00:09:25] Stephanie: S- so for me, and as, as we are in this GLP-1 era, the, the grief word you use.

[00:09:35] Stephanie: Like my business for me is not … Yeah, I make money with it. Let’s just be clear on that. Like I- that’s my- It’s a big part of it … that’s how I live, right? Yeah. Right. Like I don’t have a second job. I don’t have some kind of, whatever, trust fund. Like I gotta make money to live.

[00:09:52] Hilary: Yep.

[00:09:53] Stephanie: Um, so I have to market. I have to be out there.

[00:09:56] Stephanie: And there’s a grief in there. Like it’s not [00:10:00] something I can quit. This, this is who I am. This is the work of passion. This is the work of meaning in life for me.

[00:10:11] Hilary: This is how you make meaning, right?

[00:10:13] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:10:14] Hilary: You get to love your work. You get to be radical and still earn a living.

[00:10:20] Stephanie: Yeah. And to me that’s grief.

[00:10:22] Stephanie: Like h- like we make less money because the marketing is not favorable to us. We have a hard time finding people. But at the same time it’s not optional work.

[00:10:33] Hilary: No.

[00:10:33] Stephanie: With other businesses, right? Could be optional. I just open another business. I just… I can’t see myself opening something else.

[00:10:42] Hilary: Yeah. You’re not buying a laundromat anytime soon or anything.

[00:10:45] Hilary: I’m

[00:10:45] Stephanie: not gonna start selling weight loss neither, right? Like it’s just-

[00:10:47] Hilary: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:50] Stephanie: So there’s a lot of grief.

[00:10:52] Hilary: Yeah. And I think that is something that we need some space for. Yeah. With- within ourselves, within our [00:11:00] relationships with fellow clinicians, our movement, is one of the reasons why it feels hard to move forward right now is because there is grief.

[00:11:09] Stephanie: Mm.

[00:11:09] Hilary: And grief I believe from the work I do, the grief work I do based on the work of Francis Weller, you know, we believe grief has alchemical p- properties. So if we do what feels counterintuitive and move towards those hard, deep, hopeless, darker feelings that grief presents in us, they wanna be met by attention.

[00:11:34] Stephanie: Mm.

[00:11:35] Hilary: And when we pay attention to that within us and let it be true, we’re, you know, aligning ourselves with a bigger truth altogether, which is that everything we love we lose. And I hate saying that to people but it is the truest part of being human. I mean, we’re sitting here recording this the same week Dolly passed, and Tim Curry, and the floods in Nepal, [00:12:00] and there’s so much love in this mourning of the passing of Dolly, right?

[00:12:07] Hilary: And Tim Curry. Mm. Like so much love is emerging here alongside the bitterness of the grief, right? So we have to grieve in order to figure out what the next step is. And that’s just being human How do we do that

[00:12:26] Stephanie: in business?

[00:12:28] Hilary: Well, I think, I think we have to know that business isn’t gonna get us… I don’t know.

[00:12:34] Hilary: You know, we’re not multi-billion corporations, so-

[00:12:38] Stephanie: Exactly …

[00:12:39] Hilary: our work is gonna be constantly iterating and evolving. I remember, you know, Dana and I have, um, co-f- co-founded Center for Body Trust 20 years ago. Yeah. And there was the first eight to 10 years, I kept o- operating on a belief that somehow we were gonna get done with the iterating.

[00:12:58] Hilary: Like, we were gonna get done with the [00:13:00] creative part, which is the best part ultimately for me. Once, once I figured that out, it helped. But, um, we don’t get to be done iterating in our work.

[00:13:10] Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:10] Hilary: It’s always gonna be evolving because the nature of our work is very fluid, right? We’re always learning. You know, we’re always, um, creating in response to what others bring us, and the world is doing some real evil shit right now, and part of that is the marketing of GLP-1s-

[00:13:37] Stephanie: Yeah

[00:13:37] Hilary: and the presentation of GLP-1s, and that is a system that’s always been churning, always been existing. I was at a conference six years ago, seven years ago, where I asked a question they did not like, and they… It was an eating disorder conference, and I remember the guy disregarding my question because he’s like, “Well, you know, pretty soon we’re gonna have just, like, a [00:14:00] pill or a shot that everyone can take, and we won’t even need to worry about all this stuff.”

[00:14:04] Hilary: And I wish I had understood how true that was at that moment, right? But these, these have always been in the works. Yeah. These things were in the works when we were having our heyday.

[00:14:18] Stephanie: Oh, they were preparing the landscape.

[00:14:21] Hilary: And they were taking our language- Yeah … to market, right? That’s how good a job we did.

[00:14:29] Hilary: We’re on the ri- you know, we were threatening to the pharmaceutical companies even back then. We just didn’t know it ’cause we don’t think like that. We think relationally. No. We think like clinicians often. We think about trust, relationship- Um … care- Our,

[00:14:45] Stephanie: our, our whole work- … healing … is trust, right?

[00:14:48] Hilary: Yeah.

[00:14:49] Stephanie: Helping you nuts.

[00:14:50] Hilary: Yeah. And so, um, we have to understand that systems of capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy are always [00:15:00] gonna do what they do, and that happened real close to home for us. Mm. I mean, it’s happening really close to home for a lot of people every day. And I don’t know that, you know, we tend t- in the, in this Western culture to see these, like, paths of ascension, these paths of growth to be- Mm

[00:15:17] Hilary: somehow endless, where, like, we’re on an endless earning process that will never end. Like, once we start earning it will never stop, or once our movement starts being accepted, it will never stop. And it’s just, it’s not how it really works. And so we’re having to iterate and pivot and grieve Because people are still suffering, and that’s what we came here for.

[00:15:43] Stephanie: Yeah. There is a group of people who need us, and I like the word pivoting. Like, how can we pivot our business, our models- Yes … our way of serving people so that we can serve those who want it?

[00:15:58] Hilary: That’s right. Yeah. I mean, in [00:16:00] Body Trust Certification and Body Trust work, we are always talking about how there is an activist part of us-

[00:16:10] Stephanie: Mm

[00:16:10] Hilary: and there’s a clinician part of us, and they do meet. It’s a Venn diagram, right? Um, but in the way we do clinical work and Body Trust work is the client, the person, the people that we’re working with, story and experience is always the center. And so if I were to recenter my business around what’s the truth of what’s happening for people right now in this world, around their grief, that they were promised a magic pill, and supposedly it got delivered, but it doesn’t quite work that great, y- or being hungry sucks or whatever, you know, how are we meeting people in their both hope and grief about GLP-1s?

[00:16:58] Hilary: ‘Cause one thing our movement can [00:17:00] do, I think, and one thing our businesses can be doing is shedding light on the shadow.

[00:17:05] Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:05] Hilary: The marketing dollars will never do that, right? The GLP-1 marketing dollars will not do that inst- until it starts failing. But we can.

[00:17:15] Stephanie: Mm. How do we do that?

[00:17:18] Hilary: I think often we wanna sp- I mean, we know the people who are suffering, right?

[00:17:23] Hilary: Yeah. We’ve all been talking to them. So I often think of my marketing as a way of, like, reaching out and bringing language to an experience people are having that may, because there isn’t a movement around them, may not, um, be easy to articulate. Mm. So I’m often stretching into a place where I’m trying to articulate stuff that doesn’t use shame to, uh, try to motivate people, right?

[00:17:57] Hilary: Where I’m saying, ’cause this is what we do [00:18:00] in clinical work, two things are true at the same time. You want this to work, and you’ve got this shadowy stuff coming up around doubts or diets or whatever, you know? And all of… We, we have big enough containers over here to hold all of that. Your doctor doesn’t have a big enough container for that.

[00:18:21] Hilary: Your weight loss dietician doesn’t have a big enough container for that. Your family doesn’t. Probably lots of your friends don’t. But we do, because we do, as long as we’re willing to sit with people on the fence for a long time. Mm. That’s what’s needed of us, and that’s what’s needed of our business, is, is to meet people where they are.

[00:18:44] Hilary: That’s always what’s needed. And we have almost a superpower in being able to do that in this moment. Once we… Again, once I can put how pissed I am away for a second. Not away, just, like, on the back burner.

[00:18:58] Stephanie: Or put it in the little [00:19:00] pocket over here- Yeah … while I do my clinical work over here.

[00:19:03] Hilary: Yeah, yeah. It’s always on simmer, and it’s really useful in clinical work, but we’re not the storyteller, right?

[00:19:10] Hilary: We’re not the- Yeah … we’re not the one building and reassessing our narratives. They are.

[00:19:16] Stephanie: Which is… It- it… In my eyes, like, that’s why I did the Beyond GLP-1 series, is to open up that subject, because I was finding that as a collective, we were not having the conversation that was over the fence, that was, like, straddling-

[00:19:35] Hilary: Yeah

[00:19:36] Stephanie: and being of support to people who are questioning their choice or coming off of it and wondering. And I gotta push back from people, like, “You shouldn’t be doing that,” and, “We should be fighting it,” and, “We should not be ta-…” I’m like, “I, I think we need it.”

[00:19:52] Hilary: I think we need it. And- And lots of us might, because things got easier for a little while maybe, lots of us might need some [00:20:00] extra support in figuring out how to meet people who are celebrating their weight loss every day and also aware of what’s not working for them.

[00:20:10] Stephanie: Yeah. So from a m- if we go back straight into business and we talk- Mm-hmm … marketing-

[00:20:17] Hilary: Yeah …

[00:20:18] Stephanie: we need to talk about GLP-1 from our- Yeah … perspective.

[00:20:23] Hilary: Yeah. We do.

[00:20:28] Stephanie: You know? And I think one of our default, and you tell me if… I, I was listening to you have a private podcast, by the way, which is excellent.

[00:20:34] Hilary: Thank you.

[00:20:35] Hilary: Thank you.

[00:20:35] Stephanie: Um, and I was listening to it, and it’s you have the same observation as me is people tend to have a cognitive dissonance of black and white, right? Like, if it’s GLP exists, we’re just not gonna talk about it, or if like people tend to go to marketing and saying, “Well, that’s not gonna be ethical, so I’m just not gonna market myself,” like-

[00:20:55] Hilary: Yeah.

[00:20:56] Stephanie: Yeah, we- We tend to have this gut reaction to it, to marketing.

[00:20:59] Hilary: [00:21:00] Yeah. It’s a personal reaction.

[00:21:02] Stephanie: Mm.

[00:21:03] Hilary: It’s a personal reaction, and that’s fine ’cause, uh, you are your business, but your business is not only you. You know what I mean? Like, you’ve created this thing that has a life outside of your nervous system.

[00:21:17] Hilary: And but I think for us, uh, as clinicians, a lot of us are making our business decisions from our nervous systems or from a reaction that we’re having to somebody else’s stuff on Instagram or from not feeling good enough or from comparing, and none of those are real. Those are, um, something we’re working out within ourselves.

[00:21:46] Hilary: They’re not an ideal place to make business decisions from. And discerning, um, our business from our own being sometimes helps us see that. [00:22:00] And Amber, you know, sometimes I’m asking folks, like, “How are you and your business doing right now?” Like, “How’s the relationship? How you guys getting along?” You know?

[00:22:10] Hilary: Because, uh, we really wanna amplify that your business is a thing that’s separate from you and it is you. It’s both.

[00:22:19] Stephanie: It’s a part of you.

[00:22:22] Hilary: Yeah, and it’s also, um, not sup- I mean, the work you do in it is personal. What happens in your business, like right now when everyone’s practices are a little low in numbers and all that kind of stuff- Yeah

[00:22:33] Hilary: is not personal. It’s not personal, and I think that’s the discernment that will help us evolve. For people listening, Ember. Talk to… What is Ember? So Ember is a, um, curriculum and a cohort or like a, a course that I’ve created that is… helps, um, [00:23:00] helping professionals with the business side of their calling is what I say.

[00:23:05] Hilary: You know, so I like business stuff. Um, I do not like business coaching world stuff, right? And I really wanted to create something that, that was made for clinicians by clinicians with nervous system awareness, and a place where clinicians, ’cause most are drawn to doing some personal work around what scares them, what’s holding them back, what worries them, what feels icky, what feels ethical, what doesn’t feel ethical.

[00:23:36] Hilary: And so our work, the work in Ember is anchored by that inner work, and then I teach some business strategic work with it. And,

[00:23:48] Stephanie: and-

[00:23:48] Hilary: And, and it’s also people can stay as long as they want beyond their first- Yeah … six months, so it ends up being a community in a container that’s very, very supportive. It’s really wonderful.

[00:23:59] Stephanie: Yeah. [00:24:00] And it’s about doing the strategic work with a different relationship to your nervous system, a different mindset so that the- Yeah … tactic can be effective. Am I correct?

[00:24:15] Hilary: That’s right. Yeah. I think, um, clinicians were handed a business model-

[00:24:20] Stephanie: Mm …

[00:24:20] Hilary: and, um, it’s a business model that was built for physicians and built for private practice practitioners that maybe had their wives working as their admin.

[00:24:31] Hilary: You know, like, this is- I love it … this is a… And then was further, um, capitalized on by insurance companies. So this business model, as much as we feel like it should look a particular way and work a particular way for 25 or 30 years, it doesn’t, because we change and evolve in it, because we have developmental growth as clinicians, and our expression of this work and what we know wants to evolve and change in this, in our b- in our careers, right?[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Hilary: So, um, those are the kinds of things I’m exploring, and I’m exploring them for myself as much as anyone else, because I’ve had a delightful 25-year career that was remarkable. And every time my needs changed in it, I had to quest- I questioned myself, you know? So I wanted to really explore that with other people.

[00:25:23] Stephanie: What are you seeing that people are doing, adapting in the field out there in 2026 with the GL- we’ll call it the GLP era

[00:25:42] Hilary: Yeah, I think a lot of the clinicians in Ember are really drawn towards developing alternative income streams for themselves. Yeah. Um, and finding ways to tell people about the work they do.

[00:25:56] Stephanie: Mm.

[00:25:56] Hilary: Because there’s a frustration for some of them that it [00:26:00] happens all in these four walls, and there’s all this wisdom and shared experience and possible community that could come from sharing it more. And so most of the clinicians in Ember are figuring out how to… how they’re gonna do that-

[00:26:14] Stephanie: Mm …

[00:26:15] Hilary: uh, for themselves and their business, and that looks different person to person.

[00:26:18] Hilary: Like, there’s a person in there developing a class for parents who have never met trans folks, but their kid comes out as trans. You know? Amazing. And there’s all this queering body trust work coming, and body trust for survivors in the era of the Epstein files. And- Oh … um, there’s just a tremendous amount of support groups who are in the GLP-1 era, like so many good creative ideas coming out.

[00:26:47] Hilary: And what I love is folks are confronting what’s scary about building an income stream, right? But they’re also, when they get to do it, they’re having a really good time. You know, someone [00:27:00] in there is building, um, stories beyond survival for breast cancer survivors, and then, you know, and addressing some of the food stuff, and cancer healing work.

[00:27:13] Hilary: And, you know, gets to go to it and r- and, and run the first workshop and be like, “That was the most fun I’ve had in a long time,” you know? And so, like, I think providers getting to have fun again is really a good idea. We forget that that’s… it might be that, you know? That it might be fun. And

[00:27:30] Stephanie: it may be possible to have fun.

[00:27:32] Hilary: That it’s possible to have fun.

[00:27:35] Stephanie: It’s possible to have fun when you put your work and it’s in an environment that’s welcoming a bit.

[00:27:42] Hilary: Yeah.

[00:27:43] Stephanie: I like that. Yeah. I like… Uh, because one of the thing I’m talking a lot to people is, like, broadening, broadening how you help people. Like- Yeah … using your skill set to its full potential- Mm

[00:27:58] Stephanie: and, like, finding what people [00:28:00] need in this moment right now and creating something.

[00:28:04] Hilary: Yes. Yes. That is what needs to happen. For

[00:28:07] Stephanie: the moment.

[00:28:09] Hilary: For the m- this moment, and, and not trying to further whittle their reimbursement rates from insurance companies away and reclaiming some of that. They are not on our side, and they don’t know what our clients need.

[00:28:23] Hilary: And frankly, a lot of our fields, um, have a lot to learn from what we know from all the years- Yeah … we’ve spent in our four walls.

[00:28:33] Stephanie: Yeah

[00:28:34] Hilary: We are the ones that will evolve this. We are the ones that are gonna innovate.

[00:28:39] Stephanie: Yeah, because at, at some point, and this is my prediction, and you can tell me what your thoughts are.

[00:28:45] Hilary: Yeah.

[00:28:46] Stephanie: Like right now we’re like any social movement, we see that, right? We have the, the pendulum swing, like we know so well in the work of intuitive eating, right? The pendulum swing, and now we’re on the, the opposite side of the momentum. [00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Hilary: That’s right.

[00:29:00] Stephanie: At some point the pendulum will settle in the middle.

[00:29:03] Stephanie: Yeah. And there’ll be a place for both worlds. Yeah. Which is like, at, like we’re on our way down, in my opinion, to the middle.

[00:29:11] Hilary: Same. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:12] Stephanie: Um, and there’s gonna be a welcome of our message back into the world.

[00:29:18] Hilary: It’ll be

[00:29:19] Stephanie: needed. We just need to ride the wave right now. What do you think?

[00:29:21] Hilary: Yeah. I absolutely think so.

[00:29:24] Stephanie: And our

[00:29:24] Hilary: work will be different. I don’t think GLP-1s

[00:29:25] Stephanie: are go-

[00:29:26] Hilary: Yes, and I don’t think GLP-1s are going anywhere.

[00:29:29] Stephanie: No.

[00:29:29] Hilary: I think they are developing a better mousetrap all the time, right? So we have to work within a culture of GLP-1s, just like we’ve all been working within a culture of, um, bariatric surgery.

[00:29:46] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:29:48] Stephanie: Yeah. A- and the, the… I mean, it’s, for some people it’s medically good, like people who have type 2 diabetes, and I’m hearing like rave stories on [00:30:00] PCOS front. Like people, not necessarily from a weight loss perspective, just from- Mm-hmm … symptom. Like, so I don’t think it’s going away, so we have to adapt, and I think that’s where we’re scared.

[00:30:11] Hilary: Yeah. And pissed.

[00:30:13] Stephanie: Pi- oh, yeah. Yeah, pissed that we have to adapt.

[00:30:16] Hilary: Yeah. And that our movement went away.

[00:30:19] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:30:19] Hilary: Um, but I don’t think it’s gone away. I think we just need to- No … be together more.

[00:30:24] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:30:24] Hilary: Um, and have these kinds of conversations, uh, because, um, everyone out there pretty much needs to know that what they’re thinking is what other people are thinking.

[00:30:36] Stephanie: And that’s why I wanted to have this conversation about business because there’s a layer of shame to this.

[00:30:41] Hilary: Yes. Yes.

[00:30:43] Stephanie: There’s a layer of shame because capitalism, money, right? When- Mm-hmm … you make less money and you entwine that with your personal being, like your self-worth story, people tend to go in isolation-

[00:30:57] Hilary: Yeah

[00:30:58] Stephanie: and not talk about the fact they’re making [00:31:00] less money, and everybody’s- Mm … making less money in their own little bubble.

[00:31:04] Hilary: That’s right.

[00:31:08] Stephanie: So I’m like, how can I use my platform to have this conversation and name the things? Because it is true. I make less money than I used to make, and, and the more I’m talking to people, we are making less money, and it’s affecting us. It’s the truth. Ugh.

[00:31:20] Hilary: Yeah, everyone is making less money. I am making less money.

[00:31:23] Hilary: We are all making less money, and it’s frustrating, and, um, it feels like something we should be able to control, and we can’t, and we have to look to the machine right now and why that is happening. And it is GLP-1s, but it’s also, you know, the current administration and all of that. Oh, yeah. So you are not im- none of us are immune to what is happening right now.

[00:31:50] Hilary: Um, and feeling that impact is really vulnerable.

[00:31:53] Stephanie: Yep.

[00:31:54] Hilary: Not just feeling, you know, the cost of groceries or, um- At the

[00:31:59] Stephanie: same [00:32:00] time.

[00:32:00] Hilary: Yeah. Um-

[00:32:01] Stephanie: At the same time we’re making less money, everything else is going up in price, right?

[00:32:05] Hilary: That’s right. Yeah. Yep. So we have to feel the impact in that way, but we also have to feel the impact on our

[00:32:12] Hilary: This is personal.

[00:32:14] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:32:15] Hilary: This is deeply personal. This is being done to

[00:32:22] Stephanie: you. Yeah.

[00:32:22] Hilary: Most clinicians I consult with are coming to me being like, “I’ve never had to market my practice before now, and now I have to.” People that have been full and had wait lists for decades, and things have changed. So if you love a clinician out there, ask them if they’re full. They will thank you.

[00:32:43] Hilary: They will just appreciate the question. Ask them if they need referrals if there’s clinicians out there you really appreciate or wanna make sure they’re doing okay. Be a really nice thing to do, ’cause some of your favorites out there could use a few more clients.

[00:32:58] Stephanie: Or even though, like even if you [00:33:00] referral and welcome to the different ideas they have to put their work out there.

[00:33:06] Hilary: Yes. Right? Yes. What are you up to? What are you envisioning? What do you think is needed?

[00:33:10] Stephanie: Like, if you do like, like if you have a space where you can host it for free for that person to have the workshop, like-

[00:33:16] Hilary: Yes. Yeah …

[00:33:17] Stephanie: like any little things to support. And I think, and you tell me what you think of that, we also need to by having these conversation that I’m gonna put- Mm-hmm

[00:33:27] Stephanie: on my public platform that I know many people will listen, we need to support each other more.

[00:33:33] Hilary: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:34] Stephanie: Like, we need to commune more.

[00:33:36] Hilary: We do. We need each other, and we need to normalize this experience so we truly know that externalizing it is the most accurate version of the story.

[00:33:48] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:33:48] Hilary: Shame wants to claim it, but it, it’s not true.

[00:33:52] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. And, and facing the shame for me has always been my way of healing, that [00:34:00] it is with my body image- Mm-hmm … or food or whatever, right? Like, we name it, we look at it, we learn to stand in it.

[00:34:07] Hilary: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:08] Stephanie: Right? And that dissolves it.

[00:34:11] Hilary: Yes.

[00:34:13] Stephanie: Doesn’t make it go away, but it dissolves it enough that you can become action taker again.

[00:34:18] Hilary: Yes. That’s right.

[00:34:21] Stephanie: And so let’s talk about business. I wanna go back to the marketing world. How do we market in t- in this? Like, we commune, we work through the shame, we grieve, but how do we market our business? What do we, what do we, how do we approach marketing in this world? Do you have any- Well- … any thoughts on that?

[00:34:44] Hilary: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s helpful, um, to pick an i- a favorite client-

[00:34:52] Stephanie: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:52] Hilary: and write what you’d wanna say to them right now.

[00:34:55] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:34:56] Hilary: And see if that, that produces something that you wanna say [00:35:00] to the world. Um, I think we market by creating communal experiences. Like, not all of us need to do online marketing.

[00:35:09] Hilary: It depends on what you’re trying to create and how many people you need for what you’re creating. But if you are gathering people together, if you’re getting together with other clinicians more than you have been ’cause you’ve been burnt out and exhausted, that is also marketing.

[00:35:26] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:35:26] Hilary: Right? If we’re collectively talking about ideas for addressing this complicated place people are sitting, that is also marketing, right?

[00:35:37] Hilary: Um, I also really encourage clinicians to write down the things that they’re saying in sessions all the time, um, ’cause those are often the things that are really important for others to hear. And make those, make a meme once a week and throw it up there if you wanna be online, [00:36:00] or start to send- Yeah … out a newsletter.

[00:36:02] Hilary: And I really encourage clinicians, if you aren’t building a list right now, if you don’t have a way of collecting names that isn’t on the internet, I highly encourage you to figure out how to start building a list. So you need, like, a free email thing, like MailerLite, there’s a bunch of them, whatever, and, um, start building your list, ’cause one thing that you do to self-preserve is build assets in your business, and your list is yours.

[00:36:32] Hilary: It doesn’t belong to Meta or anyone else.

[00:36:38] Stephanie: Is there a pla- like, as you’re saying that, I’m online, so people- Yeah … if you’re listening to this because you’re from Hillary’s world, you’re like, “Who’s Stephanie?” Like, I’m 100% online, and I’ve been online- Yeah … for 10 years, so my world revolves around helping people be online.

[00:36:52] Stephanie: That’s… I don’t have a model for face-to-face, and that’s your pro- probably more your work. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:57] Hilary: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:57] Stephanie: But for me, o- when people [00:37:00] come to me and they wanna go online, there’s an acceptance that that’s where the world is moving, to be online- Yeah, mm-hmm … and to have an digital part to your business, and the… I don’t know if there’s a way in the future of not having digital part of your business.

[00:37:17] Stephanie: I don’t know what your thoughts are there.

[00:37:19] Hilary: I don’t know either, but I do know that for clinicians to start moving in the direction of sharing their work, it’s helpful for some to know that that doesn’t have to… I think, I think people are gonna be able to have practices without being online for a while yet.

[00:37:37] Hilary: I think so. I think it’ll change eventually, though. I’m with you there. Um, I think if people-

[00:37:42] Stephanie: Heading towards there.

[00:37:43] Hilary: Yeah. I think if people want to, um, create other income streams, if they wanna make a group, if they wanna be a consultant, if they wanna do writing, I think, I think social media is probably becomes [00:38:00] increasingly necessary in those cases.

[00:38:02] Stephanie: What is your relationship to social media? How do you teach people about social media in today’s world?

[00:38:11] Hilary: Yeah. I take it out of the marketing frame and just say sharing your work. Like, people have to know- Okay … you exist, and you have to remind them that you exist. And that is how all of our brains have been trained, um, by the internet, whether you use it a lot or use it a little.

[00:38:26] Hilary: And I also say that marketing has fads and moments, and peoples have been conditioned to buy in the way marketing fads have taught us to. And so some of our marketing probably has to mimic what people are used to, how people are used to being prompted to buy.

[00:38:51] Stephanie: Agreed. Give me an example, a concrete example of that.

[00:38:57] Hilary: Well, you know, let’s see. [00:39:00] You know, I am marketing an Ember cohort right now. Yep. I’m sending out way more emails than I usually do. I’m reminding people of the date over and over again. I’m trying to put in front what the value of this is, and talk about their experience over and over again. My preference would be to tell people once a week that Ember’s open and please sign up by Monday.

[00:39:24] Hilary: Done. You know? Um, and trust people in their own decision-making process. But I also know they got 14 emails from Old Navy today, and all these other things, and I can’t work from the assumption that everyone’s reading everything I put out. So I have to know that there’s a core group of people that might be reading everything I put out, and they might be annoyed, which sucks, and I have to be on…

[00:39:51] Hilary: I have to be working really hard to stay on the radar of people who- whose lives are completely upended and very stressful right now. Yeah. [00:40:00] And that feels a little paradoxical to me in how I want to show up in the world. And I don’t know, it’s what I got right now.

[00:40:08] Stephanie: I think it’s really interesting, because that’s where I find people, um, th- this whole black-and-white thinking.

[00:40:15] Stephanie: Yeah, right. They’re like, “I’m like, I don’t wanna do this. I’m just not gonna do it,” and, and then they’re finding it hard to be s- somewhat successful. I’m like, but- Yeah … like we gotta go in the gray somewhere that- Yeah … like you gotta send more emails. So here’s another example is the whole… I’m on social media a lot, right?

[00:40:33] Stephanie: Yep. So for me, the word hook.

[00:40:36] Hilary: Yeah. Oh, that word.

[00:40:37] Stephanie: I know. Like, I don’t have, I don’t have a great ethical relationship to it. However, if I want my stuff to reach my group of people- Yeah … I have to hook it.

[00:40:49] Hilary: Well, there has to be something compelling that the mind can grab in two, in like two seconds. That’s what a hook is for, you know.

[00:40:58] Hilary: And, yeah. How

[00:40:59] Stephanie: do we work through [00:41:00] the ethics of that?

[00:41:01] Hilary: Well, I mean- I don’t know.

[00:41:02] Stephanie: I don’t

[00:41:02] Hilary: have the answer … frankly, I’m not that worried about my hooks. You know- Okay … who should be worried about their hooks? You know what I mean? Who? Yeah. The, you know, pharmaceutical companies. You know, my hooks, my hooks- Yeah

[00:41:15] Hilary: are like how can you feel more whole? Right? How can you heal your relationship- Okay, I see your point. Yeah … with your body? Well, well, it, well, on a GLP-1, right? And my hook is not like, “Oh, you failed at all your diets, but have you tried this?” That’s a lie. Mm. That’s a lie. You know what I mean? So I’m not really worried that- I like that

[00:41:39] Hilary: my content is harming people.

[00:41:42] Stephanie: So the way you think about that is like- I can… I’m more worried I

[00:41:43] Hilary: might be annoying people, but that’s, you know, what am I… I can’t… I don’t know. That’s bigger than me.

[00:41:49] Stephanie: Yeah. So w- what you’re saying is like, my message, I’m ethically aligned to it. Yeah. I’m formulating it into hook format for it to- Yeah

[00:41:58] Stephanie: reach people. [00:42:00] Right. So yeah, I’m co-opting the format of the hook, but the, like, the value of it, the substance of it behind it is cool with me. And that’s a- Yeah … great way to think about this.

[00:42:09] Hilary: It’s true.

[00:42:10] Stephanie: It is true.

[00:42:11] Hilary: And we are in a delightful position if we’re marketers, because what we’re marketing might actually be helpful.

[00:42:19] Hilary: Just the marketing.

[00:42:21] Stephanie: Here’s another question or another observation for you. So social media is constantly evolving because of the algorithm and all the things. Yeah.

[00:42:31] Hilary: Yep.

[00:42:32] Stephanie: What seems to be working right now is personal branding. So going back from the clinician parts-

[00:42:41] Hilary: Yeah …

[00:42:42] Stephanie: right, to a you story.

[00:42:46] Hilary: Yeah.

[00:42:47] Stephanie: Are you seeing the same thing on your end?

[00:42:50] Hilary: I think it’s been there for a while. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, I know, you know, Center For Body Trust is now operated by myself and Dana and Sirius Bonner, [00:43:00] right? So, um, and it’s always been Center For Body Trust, not Hillary or Dana, right? Mm-hmm. And so, but we do know if we put up a personal post or a thing with just a picture of one of us, it’s gonna get a lot more attention, and I trust in that.

[00:43:18] Hilary: I think that’s a good sign. I think people wanna connect. Yes. I think people wanna relate, and I think people wanna know when my voice goes up and when it drops. I think they wanna know what my sense of humor is like. I think they wanna know what it’s like to get in my gaze or my eye contact. I think they wanna know that if they sit with me, they’re not gonna feel, like, smaller, right?

[00:43:45] Hilary: That we’re gonna be human together. And so I think that’s an interesting trend in this moment in time when everything el- is a lie, when we’ve got MAGA face, when everyone’s trying to lose weight, that what [00:44:00] maybe consumers are actually drawn to is realness. That gives me some hope.

[00:44:05] Stephanie: And it’s also-

[00:44:06] Hilary: Is that the way you’re seeing it?

[00:44:07] Stephanie: Yeah. I’m s- what I’m seeing, so 10 years for me, right? It’s-

[00:44:11] Hilary: Yep …

[00:44:12] Stephanie: I was my brand first, then I walked away because it became about the intellectual knowledge, right? And, and if you trace my podcast, like, if you scroll through the feed of my podcast, you can see it. You can see the beginning was a personal story, then it went to very, like, formal teaching curriculum.

[00:44:34] Stephanie: And I think people with AI, the need for connection and personal story and feeling heard- Yes … seen- Oh,

[00:44:43] Hilary: yeah.

[00:44:44] Stephanie: Mm-hmm … has exponentially- Mm-hmm … increased. And I think social media’s responding to that. We say what we want of the algorithm. In the last three months, when I post my story-

[00:44:56] Hilary: Mm-hmm …

[00:44:56] Stephanie: it does 100 times better than [00:45:00] a carousel on clinical information.

[00:45:02] Hilary: Yeah, for sure. Yep. People want to know a person. I think if people see a carousel on clinical information, they’re more likely to get into comparing mind or critical mind.

[00:45:16] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:45:17] Hilary: You know, which is-

[00:45:17] Stephanie: I think that that connection, that humanness, they wanna be- Yeah … And I think it’s also part of the whole, like, gimmick of the Internet is, like, people have been frauded before.

[00:45:30] Stephanie: They’ve been had- Oh, yeah … before.

[00:45:32] Hilary: Yeah,

[00:45:32] Stephanie: that’s what I mean. So they’re a lot more resistant.

[00:45:35] Hilary: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:37] Stephanie: So they are going to study that there’s a real human behind that, and that human is who they wanna be with.

[00:45:43] Hilary: That’s right.

[00:45:47] Stephanie: But it brings a challenge to people who are resisting and scared to be seen online. Yeah. And it comes back to, to being seen, right?

[00:45:55] Hilary: Yes. And so I want folks that feel that way to [00:46:00] be, have enough space to move through. You know, like, if you haven’t ever created your own content before, why would you feel really drawn to being on the internet?

[00:46:12] Hilary: You know what I mean? Like, you know, I think there’s a process people have to move through to find a voice and try things out before, um, they can jump on board. It also looks so intimidating. Like… And I, I think we have to simplify this for folks who are clinicians and doing emotional labor, you know, 20 or 30 hours a week, and then trying to transition into building something.

[00:46:40] Hilary: Those are really big context switches for people in their work, and I think we, we have to keep… You know, that’s what I wanna do with Ember really, is keep all the things that we do in our businesses closer to a relational realm.

[00:46:54] Stephanie: Simple.

[00:46:56] Hilary: Yeah, and simple, for sure. Yeah.

[00:46:58] Stephanie: I mean, I was, I was [00:47:00] saying that to someone, like 10 years ago when I started online, I had a team of five people.

[00:47:05] Stephanie: Like- Oh, wow. Yeah … because things were so complex, right? You wanted to put- Yes … a podcast, you had a podcast team. Yes, I remember that. You had a social- Do you remember those days, like-

[00:47:12] Hilary: Oh, yeah …

[00:47:13] Stephanie: wanting to put a page on the website needed a coder who went to, like, university to code this shit because it was complicated.

[00:47:19] Hilary: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really.

[00:47:21] Stephanie: Right? And it just- But things

[00:47:22] Hilary: now…

[00:47:23] Stephanie: That’s what I’m saying, like I run my business on one person 20 hours a week now.

[00:47:28] Hilary: Yep.

[00:47:29] Stephanie: This is how s- like simpler it got. Believe me, I know it may sound complex, but it’s- Yeah … that much simpler now.

[00:47:36] Hilary: Yeah. Like I use an all-in-one platform for Ember and my grief work.

[00:47:40] Hilary: Like I use Kajabi and-

[00:47:41] Stephanie: Yeah …

[00:47:42] Hilary: I just, I was like, “Oh, I think I’m gonna start a personal podcast.” Five minutes later there it is. It’s like, what? That is so different than five or 10 years ago. And I mean a private podcast is what I meant. But anyway, yeah.

[00:47:56] Stephanie: But just some hope for the people that are, like, seeing this as, like, [00:48:00] complex.

[00:48:00] Hilary: Yeah.

[00:48:03] Stephanie: It can be simple

[00:48:05] Hilary: It can be simple. It deserves to be simple. People like simple

[00:48:11] Stephanie: And, and I wanna… A- and I know we’re switching back and forth, but it just pops into my head- Mm-hmm … because I’m having a conversation with somebody who’s actually gets it now. It’s the whole surviving this period we’re in, like continuing- Yeah

[00:48:26] Stephanie: because it’s not optional. Like for me, it’s not optional to not do non-diet work, it’s just that’s my story. It’s 25 years, my healing is just the way it is, so gotta find a way to make it work, right?

[00:48:37] Hilary: Yeah. Yep.

[00:48:38] Stephanie: And I think the simplicity allows for the space for you to really build a lean business-

[00:48:45] Hilary: Mm-hmm

[00:48:46] Stephanie: that allows you to live through difficult time.

[00:48:50] Hilary: I think that’s true. Yep. And that’s what I want for folks. I want folks to feel like… I mean, clinicians have had to operate like their parents don’t die or, you [00:49:00] know, they, they’re have a baby or go through a breakup or wanna go to, you know, Istanbul for a month.

[00:49:08] Hilary: Like, our businesses have kept us from having a life that allows us that flexibility, and I think when clinicians begin to build income streams, all of a sudden being human in our own lives becomes increasingly possible and we aren’t, you know, in our own grief work and then responding to a client’s text about grief at the same time, that we can have more space.

[00:49:31] Stephanie: Yeah. I, I… for me, I call that a, a, a lifestyle business.

[00:49:37] Hilary: Yeah, that’s right. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:38] Stephanie: A business that can support my life.

[00:49:41] Hilary: Yeah.

[00:49:42] Stephanie: Not my life supporting my business.

[00:49:45] Hilary: Right. Yeah, that is how it’s been, hasn’t it been? Yeah.

[00:49:50] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:49:51] Hilary: Yeah, we want ease and simplicity. This isn’t about all becoming billionaires or even millionaires, though, you know.

[00:49:58] Hilary: Um, [00:50:00] this is about, you know, having a really enjoyable life now.

[00:50:04] Stephanie: One of the thing you said in your podcast is possibility is not obligation.

[00:50:09] Hilary: That’s right.

[00:50:10] Stephanie: Talk to the people about that because I think- I mean, I- … that was a wise statement …

[00:50:14] Hilary: yeah, I was, I was working on… You know, I was talking to my best friend about, like, how, you know, you click on somebody, somebody’s business-y ad on Instagram right now, and then you get followed around by it, and then three of their competitors follow you around- Yes

[00:50:28] Hilary: too, and it’s really complicated. And then as you consume the content inadvertently or because you want… are curious, it ends up building this idea of like, “Oh my gosh, I should’ve been doing webinars this whole time,” or, “I should’ve been doing this or that.” And, um, it, it carries this air of like, if I’m not doing all this, I won’t be successful, and that is just not true.

[00:50:49] Hilary: No. People can have a million followers and not be monetizing any of it. So we are actually talking about, you know, having a [00:51:00] business that serves the needs of the people that follow you, which is a relatively small number of people com- in comparison to the earth. Like, it’s not that y- everything you do has to speak to everyone.

[00:51:10] Hilary: Yeah. And so just because you see possibilities doesn’t mean you’re obligated to follow any of them through. What I want folks to be able to do, and what I’m always trying to fine-tune in my own business, is how do I make the easiest decisions? And how do I, uh, approach the things that scare me with backbone and- Mm-hmm

[00:51:34] Hilary: and make sure that I am choosing the easiest path possible.

[00:51:38] Stephanie: Tell me more about backbone.

[00:51:40] Hilary: Yeah. I was just thinking a lot about how much avoidance there is of what scares us in our businesses. And, um, there was a bunch… There was a conversation in Ember where everyone was like, “Why not me? Why the fuck not me?”

[00:51:55] Hilary: You know, people who were starting to put their work out there. And so it’s got that kind [00:52:00] of quality of like, no one’s deciding, you know, that you… Y- no one’s deciding this for you. You can, um, create whatever you want and put it out there and sees how… see how it goes. But you have to know that it doesn’t have to look like anybody else’s, that you don’t have to follow anyone else’s rules.

[00:52:21] Hilary: That, you know, as my friend Desiree Adaway’s always telling me, like, there’s 20 different types of toothpaste, or 40, right, on the shelf. And in Ember, we talk a lot about how you only need, you know, 10, 20, 40, 1,000 people. I don’t know. It depends on what you’re building for what you need. But you don’t need, you don’t need a ton.

[00:52:41] Hilary: So you just need to be creating stuff that speaks directly to the people that are interested in what you have to say. And to me, that takes enough backbone just to show up and stand up straight and say, “This is who I am.”

[00:52:55] Stephanie: And I’ll answer the question, why not, why the fuck not me?

[00:52:59] Hilary: Yeah.

[00:52:59] Stephanie: [00:53:00] Because I rather you than diet culture or-

[00:53:03] Hilary: That’s right

[00:53:04] Stephanie: capitalism. I rather you. Yeah. So why the fuck not you? I rather you. Like, go for it. Yeah.

[00:53:09] Hilary: We’re all pulling for you. We really are. And the ones who aren’t, don’t pay attention

[00:53:16] Stephanie: No. Let them be.

[00:53:18] Hilary: Let them be. They can have their own communal- communities and relationships.

[00:53:23] Stephanie: Um, so talk to us about Ember. We’re gonna wrap up because you have an appointment, and, and, um, I want people to hear about Ember.

[00:53:31] Stephanie: Yeah. I think it’s starting in a couple days, so I’m gonna try to put this out as quickly as I can.

[00:53:37] Hilary: Oh, good.

[00:53:37] Stephanie: Yeah. But it may be past your September 1st deadline, though, I think.

[00:53:40] Hilary: That’s okay. I’ll take folks in the first week or so of Sept- Yeah … first half of September if they really, really feel compelled to join.

[00:53:47] Hilary: Yeah. So that’s okay, and I appreciate you doing that. Um, so Ember is a six-month container, a cohort, where we move through the Ember curriculum together, um, and stay focused on, [00:54:00] um, the inner work that’s needed to do… be strategic in our businesses. Um, and this is a supportive community where people are talking about what scares them, what excites m- them, and what they want to create, and money, and that’s all vulnerable, but it’s not icky.

[00:54:19] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:54:19] Hilary: We can do this together, and I am wholly invested in, um, non-diet practitioners and all practitioners who don’t do diet-y work-

[00:54:30] Stephanie: Yeah …

[00:54:30] Hilary: um, being supported in a container like Ember. Um-

[00:54:33] Stephanie: That’s the boundary we have, right? We just all do intentional weight loss. That’s-

[00:54:36] Hilary: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t work with anyone in Ember who does- Yeah

[00:54:39] Hilary: weight loss. Um, so that is Ember. Ember is also a course that you can purchase on, just on its own.

[00:54:46] Stephanie: Okay.

[00:54:46] Hilary: Uh, so if you want to DIY that, that’s available to you, too. It’s all on the same page. Um, folks- A-

[00:54:54] Stephanie: and- Go ahead … I want people to notice your marketing because you’re doing exactly, right? You’re giving people- Yeah

[00:54:59] Stephanie: option. [00:55:00] You’re giving, like… You’re marketing in the way that gives, that represent your value in business.

[00:55:06] Hilary: Yeah. It’s all value oriented. It’s all, you know, saying, like, I kind of know you. I don’t know you, but we’ve been in the same circles. We’ve been doing the same thing for a long time, and I’ve been where you’ve been, and that is the basic essence of Ember.

[00:55:19] Hilary: Nobody’s on a pedestal here. Um, everyone’s figuring this out together, including me. I’m always iterating. So.

[00:55:28] Stephanie: Well, thank you for having shared this one hour with us today, Hillary.

[00:55:32] Hilary: It’s been such a pleasure, and I, and I want to just echo that it does feel really good to talk about this.

[00:55:38] Stephanie: Yeah. I really I think we need more of those conversation.

[00:55:41] Hilary: I do, too. I do, too. Yeah. So I really appreciate you.

[00:55:44] Stephanie: Transparency so people feel seen and heard and, and that doesn’t mean we’re quitting. We’re moving forward differently, and here’s some ideas- Yeah … for you.

[00:55:54] Hilary: Yeah, and we’re doing the grief and the anger- Yeah … so we can keep moving.

[00:55:59] Stephanie: Thank you. [00:56:00]

[00:56:00] Hilary: Thank you.

[00:56:05] You wanna coach behaviors, not bodies. Learn the mindset tool and the method that create real changes. Join the wait list for the next cohort of the non diet coaching certification at stephaniedodier.com/waitlist. That’s where the real training begins, and I’ll see you on the other side, my sisters.