81-Scaling Your Non-Diet Business-What No One Talks about with Vanessa Preston

Scaling Your Non-Diet Business-What no one talks about an interview with Vanessa Preston. 

What does it take to make it happen? What do you need to know that will tremendously move the dial up and grow your business.

I’ll be honest it’s likely not what you think it’s about… 

Me and Vanessa go deeply behind the scenes and share what it really looks like and feel like to grow your non -diet business.

Scaling Your Non-Diet Business 

What you’ll learn listening to this episode:

• The “behind the scenes” of our personal journey to scaling our non-diet business
• The failures and how we handle them
• How we befriend our nervous system
• Did someone say photoshoot???
• Real raw conversation about scaling your non-diet conversation

Mentioned in the show:

Non-Diet Coaching Certification

Free Resources 

Connect with our guest:

Website – Vanessa Preston

Instagram – Vanessa Preston

Facebook – Vanessa Preston

Transcript:

Scaling Your Non-Diet Business-What No One Talks about with Vanessa Preston

Hey, my dear colleague, welcome back. I have, or we have a treat for you today because it’s two of us. Today’s an interview with a colleague, former student of mine, Vanessa Preston, and we had this beautiful conversation that we recorded about business growth, about scaling our businesses and what it really takes.

We’re taking you behind the scene and the real raw emotion and thoughts that goes on in each of our brain when we think about our business. And it’s likely not about what you think it is about, because most of us have been sold by business culture, that it takes action, it takes strategy, it takes a lot of complicated things in order to be successful in business.

And this conversation is going to highlight from people in the trenches who are growing their business what it really takes behind all those strategy and what makes both of us successful. So I invite all of you to listen to this conversation. It is one of the longest interview I’ve ever done because the conversation was too good to end it.

So, enjoy it and I would love to hear from you after you listen to this episode, how it helped you, because I know it’s gonna be a tremendous help to many of you.

So give me some feedback on social media, on email, and I hope that it helps you as much as it helped me and Vanessa to have this conversation and record it for you.

So to my team, let’s roll over the interview.​

Stephanie: Welcome to the show, Vanessa.

Vanessa: Thank you. I’m excited to have a chat with you.

Stephanie: I’m excited too. So I’m gonna put a context to this for everybody listening. We literally just jumped on Zoom and I said to Vanessa, I want to have a casual conversation and I wanna record it, and I want everybody to listen to two friends having a conversation and what kind of conversation we’re having. So, that’s the context. She hasn’t said barely anything to me other than you’re doing well and doing well and that is it.

Stephanie: And the second piece I wanna say to everybody, this conversation was triggered by an email I got from Vanessa. So I put myself on her list of future client and I got this email from her and I’m like, holy shit, we need to talk about this.

Stephanie: So here we are.

Vanessa: Yes, and I

Stephanie: You excited?

Vanessa: I’m excited. And the one thing I did say before you hit record was your haircut is so fabulous.

Vanessa: [Sheik] See you, you have on your cute business Kinded jacket and for listeners, I’m in Australia, so it’s like 7:00 AM. So I like, in my hoodie and in my recording closet,

Stephanie: and I’m in the bright yellow jacket.

Stephanie: So it’s been what, a year and a half. When is the last time we got on Zoom? A year and ago when you taught a masterclass for the professional about regulating the nervous system? [Yes. Yeah.] Yeah. I think that’s what it was, right? [Yeah.]

Stephanie: We’ve been conversing over emails and over dms and PMs and all of that stuff, but it’s been a year since we had a conversation. So Vanessa graduated from the Non Indict Mentorship program. She has an extensive background in therapy, complex trauma therapists. She came to us, did her personal work, and then went on to build a business. And when I got this email from you, like you’ve gone all like serious in, serious business.

Vanessa: Stephanie, when I knew we were gonna have this chat, I was like, in my soul. I was like, how honest am I about to be.

Stephanie: Real raw, honest, because that’s the only thing we do.

Vanessa: Cause I’m like, some of what I might share, I don’t know how inspirational it will be at first, but I think it will be stuff that maybe other business entrepreneurs and women are sitting with and might even feel ashamed of. So I can kind of speak to. the reality of behind the scenes and it’s worth it and I’m so excited. [Yes.]

Vanessa: But one of the things I tell my clients is anxiety and excitement can feel the same in the nervous system. So sometimes I’m like, when I’ve taken the next step in, the next step in the business, I’m like, I sit down, I take a breath, I’m like, is this anxiety or am I just excited?

Stephanie: Yes.

Vanessa: But since, since I taught that trauma kind of informed type workshop, which I love doing, I have, I do it for lack of better wording, leveled up. I guess it really had to take that next step in the business. And I’ll tell you a few things that I’ve kind of faced, and when I was thinking about sharing this with you as well, I was like, Stephanie, I did not manage my brain all the time.

Stephanie: You shunt, you’re human.

Vanessa: She was running around like a wild toddler who was hungry and grumpy sometimes. So, where I think the, actually, the growth happened, which I’m certainly not saying this is something that would be the right move for everybody, but I took a total step back from social media. [Mm-hmm.] A total step back.

Vanessa: And that is a decision that I had been kind of ignoring from my gut for a little while. And it was really hard because it’s like, oh my gosh, what’s gonna happen? No one’s gonna know what I’m doing. It’s kind of this massive fomo, like everything I had learned through lots of business coaching was how to show up on social media.

Vanessa: And so, but what I learned from kind of following my gut with that decision [mm-hmm] is I think what you’ve witnessed on my email list is I had been avoiding, like the social media had become an avoidance tactic for me. So it would be, I’ll show up, I’ll record a story. That’s great, nothing wrong with that. But I would do it so I got this short term feeling of being productive while I was avoiding creating a product suite, automating things, hiring a VA who has the skills that I don’t have. [Yeah.] And so it, all of these things, once I listen to that gut instinct, did unfold. And it’s kind of what you’ve been witnessing over the 12 months [mm-hmm] with emails going out and things like that.

Stephanie: Yeah.So all of that, all hell yes to that. But, so from my perspective, so I wanna give a bit of context for people, when we met, you were in private practice for like 20 years, as a therapist with an established practice, with a wait list, well known in your field in Australia, not on social media from a business perspective, not an online teacher, not a podcaster, no, nothing of that.

Vanessa: Nothing. And the thing is, I remember telling you this when I did the mentorship program. That didn’t require marketing. It was just this, it’s a different vibe. It’s just a totally different kind of thing. So yeah, when I came to you initially, it was full-time private practice and I think that’s one of the things that have kind of, has seen me through is that focus. When the anxiety was up or when my perfection is in part, which I’ll share with you, kind of was activated, I really came back to what’s my long term focus. [Mm-hmm] And it is help women make peace with their now bodies and food. Right? [Yeah] I want women to find radical self-acceptance.

Vanessa: And two is, like you said, years and years in private practice. I really have this longing to diversify that. I love the one-on-one work but diversifying that to prevent burnout and kind of just have this different thing. So yes,you helped me start that move in the mentorship program from creating these online groups and programs.

Stephanie: Well, I think it’s in like in, so it’s been two years. I can’t remember when you did the mentorship, two, two and a half years ago. Like, I just want you to think where you came from in those two years. Like, just like I kept reading your email, I’m like, what the fuck? Like, you’re blowing my mind. I hope you’re blowing your own bro.

Vanessa: That is the deepest compliment because you’ll tell it like it is. So it’s like when I get a compliment from you, I’m like, it’s true.

Stephanie: It’s like going from this and I know how difficult it was for you to start crafting this other identity, we’ll call it what it is. You have the well established expertise and therapy, but you had to create from the bottom up, just like a brand new coach. [Yes.] You had to build yourself up from like literary ground zero to start, to get where you are right now.

Vanessa: Yes. And I remember when me and you were talking about starting the podcast, I think I’m in like maybe episode, I don’t know, 69 or 70 next week or something. But I remember me and you talking about that, and I was like, Stephanie, I don’t even have enough to say. [I know.] And I also, this is kind of shows what’s possible when you are supporting your nervous system [mm] and doing the deeper work because I remember jumping on the microphone for that first episode. Stephanie, I recorded it four times. [Yeah.] I was shaking. I felt anxious in my stomach and in my chest. And now I can just jump on it’s second nature,

Stephanie: open the mic and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right?

Vanessa: Yes. Yes. So it’s kinda like, it’s kinda like exposure therapy. It’s like over the two years I just keep taking gradual steps. The thing that scares me, where can I start? That’s like a two outta 10. And then once I’ve done that and I can restabilize, where can I move? That’s like a four or five outta 10. Restabilize. And that’s really the approach I’ve tried to take.

Stephanie: And that’s where you and me agree on like the, that bridge between therapy and coaching, which is really like coaching is about becoming that version of you, of taking that step forward, anxious and scared, but safe. [Yes.] Like if you wanna create, for all of you listening and you want to create that practice or you want to create that business, you’re gonna have to do things scared shit. [Yeah.] It’s just like, it’s a fact.

Vanessa: Yes, but I think though your words has have always stayed with me and I’ll, I’m gonna swear for a second. [Yeah] But you were like, fuck it. Do it scared. [Yeah] And so I’ve really held onto that of, do it scared but not unsafe. [Yes] that’s what I teach my clients with body image work too. I’m like, we’re about to get uncomfortable, but we don’t want you unsafe. So where do we, how do we find that kind of line together?

Stephanie: Where do we find that limit? So let’s talk about this. So you did the mentorship, you started your podcast and we, you went on your way, you came back and taught a class for me. But now you’re at a place where you have a website, you have an online program. You have professionally designed, like online. You had the next step. You’ve ran your program a few time. Now it’s like out there in big time. There’s a photo shoot of you on that sales page. Like people you don’t understand, she did a photo shoot.

Vanessa: Yes, and that’s an example of like, if you look back, Stephanie, what you’ll see is one headshot of me, [mm-hmm] one headshot. After all the work I’ve done around the past eating disorder and the past chronic dieting and the past body shame, I still had this fear of being seen from the neck down type thing, right? [Mm-hmm] Like, and so yes, that pho it’s funny you bring up the photo shoot because I’m like, the VA that I’m working with is brilliant, you know her, Adel.

Stephanie: Okay, yes.

Vanessa: And she has really helped me kind of get so much of this like up and going and our meetings, it kind of got to a point where it was like, Vanessa, we need photos of you.

Vanessa: I was like, but here’s a great headshot. But,

Stephanie: she’s like, no, we need a, like a full body picture.

Vanessa: Yes. And so that even that I, I actually have an episode coming out about what it was like to do that photo shoot cuz it was the next level being seen [yeah] in the business. And when you talk about the thought work that you teach, I will kind of often refer to what criticizes us around our bodies and the mirror and the reflection is that body critic.

Vanessa: [Mm-hmm] And what I find is each step in the business, it’s a version of the body critic that kind of gets activated. But over time, it’s less intense, it’s less frequent. You’re skilled up to manage that in a more effective way and quicker. The spiral isn’t there. And so the photo shoot was something that did trigger the body critic voice, but was equipped to fuck it and do it anyway.

Vanessa: [Mm-hmm] Do you know what I’m saying? And, and it ended up being fun. I started out like such unnatural smile, Stephanie. He was like, just look natural. And I’m like, Grinch, this, that soul Christmas. And, and then,

Stephanie: and stiff in one position, right?

Vanessa: He’s like, just kind of look like you’re speaking to a client on the screen. And I’m like, oh my gosh, I can, I’m too,I’m too uptight right now. But over the time I was able to find like a level of embodiment and by the end, we were at the beach and I was like, splashing water and I, and it felt fun and I didn’t care who was watching. So it was like a really great experience and, and an example of like, when you base it.

Stephanie: Do you find that, so your first professional photo shoot after having done the body image and the way I experience photo shoot these days, it’s almost like therapy. For me, it’s like I’m doing it for the business, but it has so much benefit for me. With every photo shoot, I embody myself better, I flow in my body better, I’m able to look at the photos right there on the spot in the camera, like it’s therapy for me. Did you find the same experience?

Vanessa: Yes. It was so therapeutic and it’s funny that you say this, that I was like,the body image group that you saw is, [mm-hmm] has launched. I’m like, I would love to create like a b fff, body food freedom like photo shoot, with the women who graduate. [Yes.] Because I’m like, there’s something magical about feeling that initial discomfort and having the skills to move into feeling more embodied. And also I looked at the photos, and this isn’t, I dunno, I looked at the photos and was able to see how insignificant the body critic stuff was. And I remember feeling like a giant pimple coming up [for sure] the chin, for Right, right on the chin. And, I was like, I am this strong woman and fuck your beauty standards. And then also I was like, but can I ice this? Will that help make, go away for the photos shoot? So it was also interesting to kind of see the, I don’t like the word hypocrisy, but something about that [yeah] where it was like, I actually do care what this looks like and I’m scared of people’s opinions. And at the same time, I have this part of me that’s like, fuck these beauty standards. I’m allowed to be seen. I’m worthy in this body.

Stephanie: And I’m gonna perhaps hear those comments of this and I’m gonna have my own back. Like for me, I like to say it’s gonna happen and I’m gonna fucking handle this.

Vanessa: Yeah. Yes. And when you, I have you in my ear saying that a lot of, like, and I’ve shared that with clients, have your own back. How do we get you there? And it’s this like, it’s this deeper, it is this like non-negotiable self-trust.

Vanessa: I will not harm my body again, and I will listen to like that internal kind of inner wisdom. I don’t, I won’t always get it right, but there’s a non-negotiable, that’s what I’m aiming to do. So when I think about, I’m like, I’ve invested in a va, I’ve invested in like a platform to start really housing the programs in a more professional way and [mm-hmm] yeah, it’s that. It’s a self-trust thing [yes] where I’m like, even if I do, cuz I think when I emailed you back initially, I was like, I’ve had moments of wanting to burn it all down. Even if that happened, even if that happened, I will still have my own back. [Yes.]

Vanessa: So kinda like, there’s not this circumstance that’s going to happen that changes that.

Stephanie: I have a sentence,an intentional thought. I’m practicing this late summer song from a country singer, Luke Comms. I dunno if you know him. And it’s, he says, even if I wasn’t doing this, he talks about his career as a country singer and how he started in bars and just a stool in his guitar and now he’s on those big stage. He says, even if I wasn’t doing this, I would still be doing this. [I love that.] Like, like it’s for me because it’s my story and for you, because it’s your story, because we’ve healed ourselves and we really build this beautiful relationship with ourselves. Even if we launch something and it’s not gonna work, I’m still gonna be doing this.

Stephanie: Like, I’m never not going to be a coach for women. I’m just, it’s just can’t fathom this place where I would not, it’s non-negotiable for me.

Vanessa: Yes. I love that. And I think though, when you said like, launch the program, one of the things that I’ve been [Yeah] getting really curious about is the program that’s launched, this feeling comes up of being like a child.

Vanessa: This is not an actual memory [mm-hmm] but it’s the embodied feeling of like being a child and you have like everything ready for your birthday party, like streamers and balloons, and you have a cake and no one comes to it. I know that’s like devastating, but I’m like, that’s the fear. That’s the feeling for a minute. [Yes]

Vanessa: Just that’s like, that’s the feeling for a minute of, all this work has gone into this. Let’s just say that, that the first launch doesn’t go well. [Yeah] there’s this inner child part of me [Mm-hmm] and I don’t know, I don’t know where you sit with this, but there’s this inner child part of me and I’m like, so if that were my little inner child sitting there, kind of disappointed,

Stephanie: yeah

Vanessa: I would comfort her. Right. I would sooth her. I would have compassion. And then my adult self is like, okay, let’s reassess what happened with marketing. What’s my plan next? And so that’s how I’ve started to think about it is, cuz I do think launching and then not getting results you wanted can be so vulnerable.

Stephanie: 100% vulnerable. [Yeah] And it’s, it can be devastating. And this is where, for me, compassion, like the relationship I have with myself and the result is two different things. Like I’m the human behind the results. [Yeah] so I’m the human who feel disappointed, sad, rejected. Can we say rejected? [Yes] when you launch something, nobody comes rejected. [Yes] And it’s totally normal. Like the idea that it, we shouldn’t feel this way is insane. Like it’s not understanding the human nature to think that we should not feel disappointed is how, to me, it’s how I meet myself in disappointment and rejection.

Vanessa: Yes. Yes. It’s like that, exactly how you just said that, and sitting with the emotion that comes up.

Stephanie: Yeah. [Yeah] and see, yeah, it’s true. I feel rejected right now and it’s 100% normal. So let’s be with rejection. Let’s make it safe for me to feel rejected.

Vanessa: And then the curiosity of [yeah] what have I made this mean?

Stephanie: Yeah. The first of all, let’s stay with rejection. That’s like this cry and wanna kill everybody, [Yes] wanna quit. What the fuck have I done? All this money went into the shoot and this website page and oh my God, right? [Yes] It all happens to me.

Vanessa: And part of what you’re doing when that happens is like sitting with the emotion.

Stephanie: Yeah. We’re not trying to fix it first. [Yes] This is me as now a coach. That wasn’t me like 10 years ago. Like, let’s just be honest, like this is the skill. So right now we’re just gonna be pissed at the world and angry and rejected and do all the things and we’re just gonna be with that and feel it in the body and do all of, and let’s not try to fix ourselves out of feeling that shit.

Vanessa: Yes. And I think that’s what, like, I see this in other versions in clinical work too. [Yes] But certainly like the women that are in business that I’m connected to, I think, I think there can be this like pressure to, like toxic positivity, right? [Yes] Like pressure to hurry up and fix it and [yeah] positive vibes only and stuff like that where I think, what me and you are talking about is that permission to actually be with the emotion, regulate it, [Yes] regain safety and then you can reason, you know? [Yes]So that, that is something that I’ve done repeatedly. And I almost wonder like if we had a whole room of, especially women entrepreneurs and we said like, you know, the whole scene from Mean Girls, if you’ve been personally victimized by Regina George, I’m like, if you have been personally victimized by this voice that pops up and goes, fuck it, burn it down. [Yeah] Like, I think a lot of us do have that sometimes.

Stephanie: Absolutely. I, I think it’s toxic positivity, especially on social media and business to think it’s not there. But that to me is not the kind of people I want to be with. Like, it’s not the kind of business I wanna do. For me, business is a container for my own development. [Yeah] Right. So every launch and every or every whatever I do, and there’s a failure, it’s an opportunity for me to develop or deepen my relationship with myself. It’s like truly what it is. [Yeah] So when I launch something and it fails and I’m with rejection, what happens for me is with, every time I feel this way, the window of feeling terrible and rejected, just shorten. It’s never gonna go away but instead of being three weeks, It’s three days.

Vanessa: Days, yes. And it’s like that way of building the tolerance in your nervous system for that. [Yes] So it is this, you do get to a point where it is kind of less intense or less, [Yes] it goes for, yeah, it’s less strong, I guess.

Stephanie: And then I can get curious and then I can learn, okay, what’s the problem? Like, was it not enough on this or too much on this? Did I not talk about the right thing? Or like, what is it? But I don’t want to get there too fast. I want to be with the drama and as you said in the beginning, the unmanaged mind, I wanna be with it.

Vanessa: Yes. It’s funny you say drama because I’ve always felt like I have this dramatic part of me, and it’s the part, especially in your mentorship program, that I really started to be like, she is not too much and she is not too loud and she is not taking up too much space.

Vanessa: And so I let that dramatic part of me just join the party for a minute. Right. Like some way, whether it’s just, yeah, just being really dramatic about it, kind of just really sitting with all the messiness of it. But the other thing that I noticed, Stephanie, is the perfectionist tendencies.

Stephanie: Tell me, how did it show up?

Vanessa: They showed up where just everything like being, anything from even I noticed I’m mistaken in an email that went out. [Okay] Right. So I started to kind of notice and these like high unrelenting standards on myself. So it’s almost like I went, you know how we say like healing is like an onion and you kind of, [Yes] ]it’s like I hit and move through the next layer of the kind of perfectionist side. And I think one of the things that helped with that is definitely the compassion, but one of the frameworks that I use in the therapy space kind of talks about that part, that part developing to help us cope.

Vanessa: And so this perfectionist part of me, it’s developed to try to protect me from rejection or possible judgment or possible failure. So it’s almost like the perfectionist part is like, if I ridicule her enough, she’ll stop doing this thing and we can feel safe again. You know what I’m saying? [Mm-hmm. Yeah.]

Vanessa: And so it’s almost like through, through this, that perfectionist part, I’m like trying to almost just approach that part with compassion and curiosity of what are you trying to protect? What do you need to know from me? Well, it’s safe, and this is a launch of a program. If this doesn’t go well, we can reassess. It’s okay to make mistakes better done than perfect. All of these kind of like, how do I kind of reassure, that part of me, and that’s been really important to the whole evolution of the business.

Stephanie: I just wanna say, ask you this, if you didn’t reassure that part of you, if you didn’t know how to reassure it or didn’t believe in reassuring that part of you, if you step back three years to where you are now, would you be where you are today and have launched this product in this website, in this online program and all of that?

Vanessa: No, I don’t think so. I think, no. I think, one of the things that got really clear to me, and this is where sometimes the deeper, making sure as a professional, you’re doing your own work [mm-hmm] on yourself kind of continuously, right? [Mm-hmm] Because what sits under that perfectionist part for me is kind of just some younger child kind of part that learned really early. If you’re perfect and quiet and submissive, you’re safe.

Stephanie: You’re safe from harm.

Vanessa: From harm. You’re safe from harm. So it’s this teaching that part of me, actually you’re safe now. And I see those parts of people come up in the business space, [Yeah] right.

Stephanie: Yeah. So, and I’m not a therapist, but allow me to just give an analogy to people. I obvious say you’re thinking in your business as a grown ass adult today, as a 10 year olds. Like you’re using the 10 year old part of your brain to make decision as a 35 year old in your business. Like even if people don’t like what you do today at 35, it will not be dangerous, like when you attend.

Vanessa: No. And that there’s this whole thing that unfolds in therapy, and it’s honestly one of the most rewarding parts. But I’ve done this myself too, is, you know how you said that 10 year old. It’s yeah] you’re like,no, but you’re like a 30 something year old adult, strong, resilient woman.

Vanessa: It’s these, this reassurance and the showing up for that 10 year old part of us of being like, do you know what 10 year old part, I’m safe now. We’re safe, we’re actually running this. Like, it’s kind of time orienting that part.

Stephanie: Brilliant way of looking at it.

Vanessa: Yes. So the parts work has helped so much and when I’ve wanted to like burn it down.

Stephanie: Tell me when did that happen? Give me an example of what made you want to burn it all down.

Vanessa: I think, maybe like two things come to mind, and this is kind of a little bit of thought work, I suppose [mm-hmm] is I’ve always walked around. I’ve said it in your program for six months. I’m tech challenged. [Okay] That’s the thing I keep saying like, I’m tech challenged. And so I’m going, okay, how do we break that apart a little bit? Like, well, no, I’m not, I’m Vanessa and I’m kind of going, okay, I’m someone who’s learning to get better with technology. Right. So it’s kind of doing that thought work that you teach. [Mm-hmm]

Vanessa: But that definitely came up. So anytime, as I’m working with my BA anytime, it’s like, hey, can you jump into Cajabi and like, just tweak these few things, or I just need you to add this part here. Or I jump on Camba and I’m like to do something. And Stephanie, it happened so quick, but it’s gotten better. But it’s like, if I can’t figure it out in two seconds, I’m done. [You’re too bad.] I’m done. [Quit] Yeah, I’m done. So, so the tech stuff has been a real thing.

Vanessa: The other part is trying to find my voice and how I teach body image and putting it into this 12 week program. [Mm-hmm] Doing that, sometimes I felt this like overwhelm where I would be like, I’m done. Sometimes I would have all the, like the paperwork laid out of what’s happening in each module. My partner’s a psychologist, so I would be like, can you just fix this for me please? And he is like, I actually can’t do that. He’s like, I can like listen to,

Stephanie: I can listen to you, nicki feel better, therapeutic you, but I can’t fix this thing.

Vanessa: Yes, yes. Buthe’s been brilliant through all of this too becausewhen I have walked upstairs and been like, I couldn’t get something to work on Kajabi, I couldn’t get something to work in Canva, something I did failed, I feel like I’m behind on something. Oh my gosh, now I only have this amount of time to do this. The deadline’s approaching, kind of that anxious vibe. I’ll be like, babe, I think I’m done.

Vanessa: He’s like, and he’ll say, he always says something like, let’s just revisit this in about

Stephanie: therapy

Vanessa: I’m like, I’m like, so he is like, you totally like, that’s fine. We can be done, but like, let’s just see where you’re at with it in a few days. And then in a few days I’m like, I love this. It’s gonna be fabulous. I can’t wait to find these women to, so it’s just, so do you Stephanie, when I describe that, do you hear that as like unmanaged, I don’t know, mind, or do you view it as like that’s the phases,

Stephanie: that’s human nature. [Yes] That’s human nature, the illusion. So this is a great question because when people hear the word unmanaged mine and managed mine, they think one is better than the other. Like one is, manage is like, yes, you’re there, iManage your bad. But it’s not the truth. The truth is being a human is both. It’s the black and the white, [Yes] right.

Stephanie: If you study Buddhism, like it’s it, the circle is half black and half white, and that’s what makes being a human. So being a human is having an unmanaged mind and being aware that it’s unmanaged. When I have my drama of rejection, I’m like in it and I’m aware that I’m in it.

Vanessa: Yes.

Stephanie: Like I believe it, but I don’t believe it. But I’m like, yes, it’s true, it sucks, but it’s just an un management. Oh, right.

Vanessa: I love that how you just said that. Yes. It’s like that happens because we’re human, but I, there’s this kind of deeper knowing, observing self, isn’t there? Yes. That’s like, oh, you’re doing that thing.

Stephanie: Yeah, you’re having that. Let’s have that moment together. Let’s make it like all the way to the extreme. So like for me it’s like, okay, let’s be rejected and all the way. Like, let’s feel it in every cell of my body and then this, do I wanna continue? Like this is where the personal work comes in because now I have a choice. [Yeah] Do I want to continue to feel like this? Like I’m not outta control. Oh my God, I like, it’s the end of the world. Like, I’m doom. This is who I am. It’s like, okay, this is happening to me. I feel rejected. People don’t wanna buy my stuff, but I have a choice.

Vanessa: Yes, yes.

Stephanie: This is where personal work, taught work. Nervous system regulation. The gift that it gave me. It’s having a choice.

Vanessa: And that’s the magic. That is another like core kind of value that really strengthened for me through the mentorship program and beyond was autonomy. [Yes.] Especially when we’re yes, like the honoring of choice.

Stephanie: Yeah. You can say, I’m like, you can send rejection. You can like be in your pit of sorrow for the next week if you want to, for the next month forever. Like, you can be there. Do you want, No, fuck that sucks. [Yeah. Yeah.] Like, okay, weve been there for today. Like, let’s move on to something else now.

Vanessa: Yes. Yes. And the last thing when I think about like this evolution right, is, and I, when I do therapy with therapist or with coaches, it comes up every time is, which the thought that, I should know better because I’m a professional. Like I shouldn’t be feeling this, I shouldn’t be thinking this. I should be further along. And this is where it’s kind of normalizing what you just said is actually the importance of the skills you learn, the awareness you develop. And just because we’re therapists and coaches doesn’t mean we’re immune to human normal experience, but it’s kind of what we do with it.

Vanessa: [Yes.] So that was a voice I noticed where I was like, oh my gosh, here I am. I’ve taught the, my group program live three times. I’ve taught workshops and I’m saying I’m teaching women like you are worthy of being seen in your now body. And here I am, like at a photo shoot being like, where’s my headshot?

Vanessa: But it’s just kind of having that compassion [Yes] and that like, just because you’re a professional doesn’t mean you’re gonna magically perfect this. It’s

Stephanie: Let me ask you this. [Yeah] Why do you think that is? Why do you think, to me, it’s a misunderstanding of the human nature that leads certain professional to think it shouldn’t be happening. Why do you think it’s happening? Why do you think they think that? Is it a misunderstanding?

Vanessa: Well, if I can speak from like a therapist perspective for a minute, and maybe there’s like a version of this in the coaching community too. I think there’s this thing that develops really early in university and training and then beyond of it’s kind of us versus them.

Vanessa: We are the experts. We are the healers andthey, the clients are the one with the problem and the issue. So it becomes this kind of, in a way, like a dehumanizing us, we’re the experts and it’s them. Where I don’t view it like that. I kind of go, I view it in like a humanistic way where it’s like, we’re all kind of doing this messy thing called life and we all have our wos or hurts or pain.

Vanessa: We all have our goals and dreams and values, and so I think that might be part of it is even in trainings. As a therapist sometimes it’s like, you can see we role play a lot. So we did this, I did a eating disorder training this year, and they always do it. It’s therapist, client, and then observer. And you can see the discomfort for professionals to get out of their experty space and be the human. And I’m not saying this to criticize anybody. I totally get where it comes from. But it’s funny because when I did the role play, I was the client and I was a teenager and I was dealing with an eating disorder. And afterwards they were like, gosh, you’re like a really great actress. They’re like, you can tell you’ve really worked with a lot of clients. In my head I was like, honey, I just channeled my n Inner teenage Vanessa.

Stephanie: That was my real story.

Vanessa: So I think that might be part of it, is this idea that like, no, no, no,you’re the expert.

Stephanie: As you’re saying now, but the imagery that came up to me in my head is a pedestal, right? Yes. And it’s like an armor that socialization the current system or in for leadership, because I’ve, my corporate background comes in here where they teach you to like position yourself above to show leadership in authority and wear this like, armor to distance yourself and create a persona for credibility that people will buy, that you are perfect, you’re stronger, and probably that’s what’s happening.

Vanessa: Yes. They’re kind of in that part of them, and then it’s like, it’s hard to kind of, resign themselves. [Yeah.] Like, well, how do I make, if I’m that and I’m armored up and I’m in that, how do I kind of admit to myself that actually there’s this healing and these vulnerabilities that I need to be addressing?

Stephanie: Yeah. And for me, I don’t know in therapy, but for me, the way I teach coaching, the way I coach, it’s my humanity. It’s my unmanaged mind. It’s my lived experience that makes me greater at helping other people.

Vanessa: Yes. And it’s, that’s the magic in addressing what’s there because there’s magic in it, in the experience and in the pain or the emotions when you really start to work through it, there is magic because of what you said.

Vanessa: You kind of have this lived experience that you understand, [mm-hmm] that you’re aware of, that you’re taking steps to continue to heal.

Stephanie: And it doesn’t require me to be on a pedestal with an armor. I don’t need to create this persona. I can be who I am and be in that whatever mess and know that people I’m in a mess and totally be okay. I don’t need to be looking perfect on that armor.

Vanessa: Yeah. When I have a client come in and even in the group work, I just kind of spell that out of, yes, I have knowledge. Yes, I have skills and training. Yes, I’m going to be teaching some things, but your lived experience matters. And I kind of view like, we’re walking together in this. It’s not me above you. This is like, we’re walking together and I’ve had clients be like, Vanessa, I don’t wanna work on that. And I’ll go, you don’t have to work on that part. [Mm-hmm] and then all of a sudden the resistance goes down and it does open up something. As soon as you’re not kind of pushing, it’s the autonomy. [Yes] As soon as someone knows they have autonomy with you and you trust them, the resistance to change goes down.

Stephanie: And the change goes, the transformation potential is greater. [Yes. Yeah] But as you’re saying that is because when you walk side by side with your client, when you’re in the position of pedestal and authority, the performance of the person you work with is of the significance to your greatness. But when you’re coaching, at least for me, side by side, it’s not about what the client does or the transformation they have. Like, I’m solid in who I am and my potential and my greatness, and I just landed to you. But what you do with it does not make me greater or less thereof.

Vanessa: Yes. Stephanie, that has been, it’s a process of like detaching your worth [yes] from everything. And what are we doing in body image work? We are detaching our worth from being in a specific beauty body ideal. [Yeah] we’re detaching our worth from the outcome of our launch. We’re detaching our worth from our clients transformation. Do we want all that to go well? Of course we do. [Yes.] Are we cheerleading for our clients to make change? Absolutely. But I get what you’re saying. It’s not like my worth is not dependent on that. That is like a hardcore intentional belief. I did a thought ladder in your program about this. I remember sitting with you going like, I don’t know the core belief,

Vanessa: But now I’m like, my worth is not dependent on anything. And I might have a scared part of me that doubts that sometimes, but like, I had a client say to me, I feel like when I come here, it’s like initially you’re like walking beside me in my brain and I’m being like, these are all the things, this is the thing that my parents left me, this is the legacy from then. And she said, and it’s like you’re sitting there really going like, wow, you live like this, this society. She’s like, I’m just kind of showing you the lay of the land. This is what’s going on. But yeah, I think, I don’t know if I went on a tangent, but I said all that to be like professionals, it’s okay to do your own healing. [Yes.] And it’s okay if you’re not this perfectly manicured like perfect human. It’s just no such thing.

Stephanie: No am and I was gonna say am. The more messy you are and the more you move yourself through that, coach yourself, theorize yourself through this, the greater coach or therapist you’re gonna be for your people.

Vanessa: Yes, and I don’t say this with any judgment, but a lot of therapy training, for example, require you to do your own work and a lot actually don’t. I can tell the therapists who haven’t done anything. [Yes.] And honestly, so can the clients. And so it’s if you want your client to walk the walk, you better have done it too.

Stephanie: Yeah, and it’s interesting what I’ve observed now I’m at my eighth cohort that I’m launching [Wow] of professional. And so I’ve now seen a variety of backgrounds and people, and I have to say that the people with the most traumatic pasts that have moved themself through it, coach themself through it, heal themself through it, are the most potential, the coach with the most potency for their clients. Then they don’t, most of them don’t have a degree on the back wall. They have the degree of lived experience and doing their work and, fuck, they’re so powerful for coaches. [Yes.] Once you give them a structure to coach like, they come with all this live experience and all this trauma work they’ve done and now giving them a structure to coach other people days, like the result they get is brilliant.

Vanessa: Yes, absolutely. That’s what I, when I say like, the magic of it, that’s the magic of it. And I think we’re conditioned to attach our worth to those qualifications on the wall. [Mm-hmm] And that’s part of, you know how you said like that, like expert armored, that’s part of it. Like fix the business suit jacket and like look at my qualifications on the wall. And I’m not saying that stuff, there’s a place for that stuff. But the lived experience in your own work [yeah] helps your client transform, I think.

Stephanie: And so this is where I’m seeing the people who now three and a half years into it, and those that are still in business three and a half years later are the one, I’m gonna say something here, but they’re the one who are still in business today. Those who graduated three and a half years ago to now, those that are still in business today are the one that do their personal work every day in the circumstance of their business.

Vanessa: Yeah. I’ve said to my partner a number of times in the last 12 months, I’m like, whew, this is not for the fainthearted.

Vanessa: [No.]

Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah. But it’s certainly been an interesting evolution.

Stephanie: So where are you going next? Are you still on the path of training therapists?

Vanessa: Yes.Yes. That’s where I feel the calling of the body image program that’s launched now. I see that being a key part of training [yeah] for their body image providers. What I’m seeing in the therapy or in the coaching space as well [Yeah] and I’m sure you see this too as like, I think trauma informed has become like a cool hashtag.

Stephanie: I’m gonna do some breath work and I’m gonna call myself a trauma informed coach. [Yes.] We’ll leave it at that.

Vanessa: Yes, yes, yes. So I’m like the passion that where next is working with professionals who are teaching body image in some capacity and really giving them skills to do that in a trauma informed way. And Stephanie, I’m seeing a real need for that too in the eating disorder space.

Stephanie: Oh, yes.

Vanessa: There’s a lot happening in the eating disorder space that doesn’t actually value client autonomy at all and doesn’t acknowledge that. And this is relevant for the clients your coaches are working with when it comes to chronic dieting. There’s no acknowledgement of the food behaviors are serving a deeper need. If we are not addressing that, at least in some way in eating disorder treatment, it kind of turns into like a power struggle. [Yeah.] So, yes, when you say like, what’s next, I wanna keep running this body image program for women. I have put like my blood, sweat, tears lived experience, clinical experience, all the feedback from the times I’ve run it. [Yeah.] And it’s like, I’m actually really proud of it, so I’ll keep running that. But yeah, I’m thinking professionals, it’s where my heart is calling me.

Stephanie: So I have two things for you. I’m preparing a workshop right now on binge strict cycle and I was reading a study yesterday [yeah] on, I wanted to bring the view of science on binge eating and they had like, wanted the solution to binge eating was a weight loss program. And it just made me cringe to the deepest part of my D n a. I’m like, this is one of the top study on binge eating disorder is recommending a weight loss program on a low calorie diet. I’m like, that’s the state of the eating disorder research.

Vanessa: Yes. And it’s very weight central. [Oh, wow.] The fat phobia is sewn into the very fabric of the treatment space. And I actually, it’s interesting you say that because two days ago I had a psychologist send me an email that went around to her clinic. Stephanie, this is a huge clinic, 20 clinicians maybe. And they were excited because they were partnering with a university here, and they were doing a study, the quote, weight loss injections, right, [Oh] and this is disgusting. And it was, we want to line up kind of therapeutic care for the vulnerable people with anxiety eating disorders and body dysmorphia to support them in their weight loss goals.

Vanessa: So this is the stuff, Stephanie, like you, it makes my blood oil. So I’m like, when I think about what’s next, we have to [that’s your field] interrogate that. We have to absolutely interrogate that.

Stephanie: And this is where the degree on the wall comes in, in that [I know] this is not my place. Right. So I did a talk recently at a university who hired me to talk about body image and every statement I had to make, I positioned from, I’m not a researcher like you, I’m in the application world. That was the only way for me to get through to them because I don’t have the diploma on the wall and I don’t have the fancy degree. But this is where, for you, you need to step into that role because you have the credibility, you have the background, and you can impact.

Vanessa: Yeah, and I’m excited about it. But also, I have to say, the people that I’ve learned from the most are not the people with the qualifications on the wall. They are people with lived experience. I mean, truly, I’m serious. They,that’s kind of where I’ve learned, but I do know what you mean. It’s, it’s a bit of a game.

Stephanie: You gotta play the game. Yeah.

Vanessa: Gotta play the game. So I’m, [the politics] yes. And so remember when we first started working together, my perfectionist part would drive me to get like 25 qualities degree.

Stephanie: Well, when you started with me, you were finishing your nutritionist degree.

Vanessa: The most horrendous experience I’ve ever had because it was just like rampant diet culture. But for the reason that you just said, I’ve started, like I’m almost done with a, like an eating disorder accreditation specific to Australia. But because of what you just said, it’s like playing the game because I wanna get into that space and just

Stephanie: Revolutionize it [down] Butit’s sad. Like people who don’t understand the politics of things, like I’ve played politics in the corporate world for 15 years, so I totally get it. You just gotta play the politics. But you play the politics with all your awareness. You’re like, I’m just gonna do your thing. You’re gonna give me the degree thing, but I’m not gonna do any of it, practice, by the way. I’m just like throwing it out. But now I have the past to go in your world and revolutionize your world.

Vanessa: Yes, yes. And so training professionals is part of revolutionizing that because there’s lots of therapists, psychologists, clinicians, et cetera, who are operating with a weight centric diet culture perspective and they’re causing harm. Make no mistake, that’s causing harm. [Yep.] And some of them don’t realize that.

Stephanie: No, I had a, somebody in one of my program, a professional, I can’t remember which one, but she was shopping for therapists because like I teach all of them like you, you shop for a coach, you shop for therapists, [Yes,] like shop. Interview them, ask them for their live experience and all of that. She’s like, I thought one was good. And I got into my first session and she talked to me six time about a meal plan and exercise. And not one time she talked to me about emotion. Fired. Like because those therapists, those professional are entrenched in diet culture, they don’t match with you. [ Yes.] That’s what you need to go and change.

Vanessa: Yes. And there’s this outdated, oh, Stephanie, I could go on a rabbit hole of who’s doing the research and what politics and powers and not. But there’s this outdated thought too of like if there’s trauma, you just kind of put it to the side and we’re gonna focus on just the food behaviors. And I’m kind of going, there needs to be this integrated approach. We need to be able to go to the source of what’s driving the food behavior. [Yeah.] So yes, I’m ready step,

Stephanie: but that’s very medical, like to see everything in isolation. Right. You’ve got a problem with your foot. I’m gonna go to the foot doctor. I’m not gonna go to the knee doctor. Even though they talk to each other, which is gonna treat that separately.

Vanessa: Yes. And then the more work that happens with clients coming in with eating disorders and chronic dieting and the body shame, lots of body dysmorphia. The more those clients come in, they’ve all been harmed in some way by a professional, to be completely honest.

Stephanie: And this is why the my program, the non diet certification has all these things in it. Yeah. Because you can’t just do food. You don’t need to be the expert in any of it, but you need to understand how they talk to each other. And then if we need an expertise in one field, we’re gonna go and get that expertise in that one thing. But you need to understand how they all play together.

Vanessa: Yeah. And for coaches too, like the relationship, you know how we were talking about walking beside and honoring your clients’ capacity and trust and autonomy and partnering with them and you’re not another source of authority, you are helping them tune in to their own, that relationship is transformational. [Yes.] So, no, you don’t have to be like expert in all of these different things, but that is core.

Stephanie: Yeah. And that’s what coaching is.

Vanessa: Yes. Yeah.

Stephanie: Right. And that’s the difference with coaching and specialty work like your other side of you, which is therapy and nutritionist, if they have a food thing, if they like you, resource out. But you’re the one who holds the space for the human. [Yes, exactly. Yeah.]

Stephanie: So, yeah. So now you’ve launched a fancy program. I not call it fancy, but it’s beautiful and then you’re gonna turn that into professional and you’re gonna go on the, remember we had a dream when you started, when you have goal was to do like retreats and speak in front of people, like you’re almost there. [Yeah.] Realize that.

Vanessa: Yeah. It is helpful to kind of reflect back and [yes] give yourself, give myself credit for the growth cuz it’s easy to stay focused on future goals. [Yes.] But it is nice to look back and be like, wow, I’ve come a long way.

Stephanie: Yeah. And your body of work is laid in now. You’re, you’re admit to methodology’s laid in. [Yeah.] Now you just need to like adapt it for professional, but that core won’t change.

Vanessa: Yes. That’s a good way to say it.

Stephanie: Right? You’re like said like me, they’re going to be on the food method. Is there, is just to who I’m teaching it will have different emphasis and like things I will mention and not mention, but your body of work is created. Congratulations.

Vanessa: Thank you. And I, every time I talk to you, I mean this and I say it, but I would not be here without you in the mentorship program. I truly mean that. Like even Stephanie, I don’t know if you realize this, but I’ve stayed in contact with so many women from that group and they have been like a key support to me. I got like a fabulous personal trainer. I’ve got a fabulous va, it’s just, that was like the, what’s the word for it? The catalyst [yes] for,

Stephanie: well, you’re a brilliant seat to show up in the world

Vanessa: So thank you, Stephanie.

Stephanie: But it’s, that’s what we do with client, right? When you work with your client one-on-one with body image, you’re not the solution. You facilitate them finding the solution and then their brilliant sea shows up and then they go on doing great things in the world.

Vanessa: And that’s, you know how I said I ground back into what’s my why. [Yeah.] That is the why when I, and I’m gonna give a quick tip because this worked so well, is if you ever have like a magic moment, inspirational moment, witness a client transformation. I just started keeping this word document where I would just type it in as soon as I could and you can come back and create such beautiful content from that.

Vanessa: But now also when I’m like, burn it down, I don’t know how much I can do. I can go back and be like, [yes] I’m just making up this name. But I can go back and be like, Katie, this is the why. She is not in her room depressed and isolated. She is out volunteering and working and she just looked a holiday and she is showing up honey and she is now connected to her purpose. So I’m like, that has been a really useful tool for me.

Stephanie: Brilliant. [Yes.] And that fuels your purpose. [Yes.] And that’s why when I say like, even if I wasn’t doing this, I’d still be doing this, that’s why.

Vanessa: I know. It’s like, what does quit even mean? When I’m being dramatic about that, I’m like, what does it actually mean? I’m gonna be doing this.

Stephanie: Yeah. Like, this is my destiny. [Yeah. Yeah.] Right. And one of the things that for me turned the ship around was looking at all that happened to me, all the trauma piece that happened to me because of my weight and food and all of that, and said, damn it, that shit happened for a reason.

Stephanie: Let’s make this purposeful. Let’s make all this shit that happened for 30 years, give it a meaning into the world. And every time I want to burn it down and I feel like I’m the worst person in the world, I’m like this, all this shit happened for a reason. Yeah, let’s give it a purpose.

Vanessa: I think like the grief that can come up in the body image space is big, but I think there’s this whole kind of stage of grief about meaning making. [Oh, there] It doesn’t, yes.

Stephanie: This is where I learned from Vanessa. Like I know, I’m just like, here’s what happened in my life and she makes all these fancy like therapy stuff. Oh, this is what’s happening. Tell me what’s happening.

Vanessa: But it’s, yes, there’s this like meaning making stage of grief and that’s how I view it sometimes is like the grief of the trauma or what happened to the little youth. [Yeah.] Or the weight stigma over the years or whatever the experience is connected to that body story, I do think there’s this beautiful place to get ofthe meaning making. Not that what happened was okay. Right. That [no] won’t be super clear about that. But that you’re going, part of the meaning making is I’m gonna reach women who have experienced similar harm and revolutionized the world in doing that.

Stephanie: So is that the end stage of grieving when you make a meaning out of it kind of stuff?

Vanessa: Yes. Yes. [See] And the thing about grief is sometimes you might cycle back to a little, you might revisit stages. [Sure] Yes.

Stephanie: Sure. But there, there was. I can tell you there was, yes, I’m not there,where I am now, like nine years later, I can honestly say that I don’t have that anymore, but it was there up to two years ago, [Yes] like I would revisit it. But now the other identity is so built into me that I don’t have it [yeah] anymore. Is that possible?

Vanessa: Yeah. And I think just like everything else of, I think when you do revisit it, a different stage of the grieving process, you revisit it with new awareness. [Yes. New perspective, perspective.] A new perspective, a new awareness, and you integrate it and kind of move, move forward. So that’s what I hear a lot with women doing amazing work in this, is they’ve gone through lived experience and their own grieving, and we’re seeing the meaning making of it.

Stephanie: I’ll share an experience because I started to do Facebook ads with video of me in full body. Obviously I’m fat in case you don’t know that. I’m fat. I’m very visibly fat. So I started to do video full body to like completely cold people, meaning like they’re not from the field of the non-AI space. Like they’re just Joe Blow on the street. And the comments on the video were just, as you can imagine, some of them horrifying, right? And then it was very interesting for me to witness me looking at those comments, delete block, and not have shame saying like, this is not me, the problem, it’s them. But two years ago it would’ve been me, the problem for like two to three weeks before it turned into them, where now automatically was like, Block and delete, block and delete without going through the cycle of shaming. So what do you make of that as a therapist?

Vanessa: The way I translate that is I truly believe weight stigma and fat phobia is a body trauma. I truly believe that. It absolutely threatens our,the sense of belonging, the sense of safety, the sense of is the way I report my experience going to be believed and kind of withstanding those assumptions and judgments about your body so that trauma can run deep.

Vanessa: So what I make of what you just said is that you’ve done lots of work to heal, and so you might, depending on where someone’s at in the healing process, that might activate a full trauma response [Yes] and we don’t want to shame that because there’s a lot physiologically going on that they, that’s not their fault. [Yeah] But the work that you’ve done, it’s kind of like,two years ago maybe it would’ve activated more of that trauma response being intense, but the work you’ve done, it’s like, it might activate a bit of emotion, but you can quickly move to this like empowered delete block, you don’t get any of my energy, regulate my nervous system, I’m safe, even if this troll has commented something.

Vanessa: So it to me, it’s like you’ve done the work to teach your body, you’re safe. And that’s how I translate that.

Stephanie: And I thank you for that because I want people to see that it’s a process. Just like building your business is a process, doing your own work is a process.

Vanessa: Yes. Yeah. And does, go ahead. Yes. I always tell my clients when I’m like, and in the groups of that, you know, that whole like, healing isn’t linear. [Hmm, Yeah] We want it to be this like perfect straight line up. And it is messy with curves and ups and downs, so normalizing that. So if a client, for example, did lots of body image work, they get those sort of trolling comments and it activates that response. We don’t wanna shame it, we wanna support them through, well, how do we regulate this? How do we respond to it from a place of compassion? So yeah, I’m sure you, I’m sure you hear that too, but fine. So be like, I took 10 steps back this week and I’m like, this is part of the healing. This is okay.

Stephanie: For me, it’s like the photo shoot we were talking earlier. It’s for me, these Facebook ads that I did was part of resiliency work. [Yes.] I was like, okay, I’m ready now. Let’s put myself into the world of like the terrible fat phobic people and let’s see how I deal with that. And I just blew my own mind of how [and was it like] I responded.

Vanessa: And was it worth it? It was like, totally, and I’m not talking financial, I’m talking about like, was it worth it to put yourself out there in

Stephanie: Totally, [yeah] yeah. It was a $2,000 experience of me, like, you know, a Facebook ad to like troll, but it was, it’s like going to therapy. I just have enough skills that I can jeopardize myself. [Yeah.] But it was like an intense therapy with a very skilled therapist. Now it was Facebook ads and me going to that platform and like feeling it, I’m like, block, delete. Have my own back. Like, this is why I do the work that I do, because there’s all these terrible, fat folic people.

Vanessa: Yes. And I think if I’m allowed to say this, [yeah] it’s a good reminder for all the coaches, nutritionist, dieticians, body image work, people that, and I don’t wanna ruffle feathers here, but for providers like me, sometimes I’m like, Stephanie, where am I on the body spectrum and body size spectrum? I had body dysmorphia for so long, but at the end of the day, I sit with a level of thin privilege. [Mm-hmm.] And I think this is an important kind of reminder that people seeing clients in larger bodies, you’ve gotta remember there is an exposure, a traumatic exposure to that weight stigma [Yeah true] that they need, that, they need support with that. If you’re kind of a thin provider, showing up like you did putting a Facebook ad and you’re not gonna face that [No] in that way.

Stephanie: No, you won’t. Oh, it totally makes sense. And I think this, when I said to you earlier, like, everything that happened to me, like I’m at that point where it happened for a reason, [yes] I’m like, let’s use that body. [ Yes] Like let’s use that body to change something in the field that I’m in and let’s put that fat body out there and let’s challenge people’s perception. They’re gonna be dickhead when they go into comment, but they now see somebody that talks about health in a fat body. I’m planting a seed. It may take 10 years to change, but I’m planting a seed to help them see that it’s possible.

Vanessa: Yes. And I don’t know how many photo shoots you’ve done, but you do look fiercely fabulous because I am loving how you like, the bold colors. [Yes.] How good is that? Because how often do you, I think you said this first of like, dress in the black outfit and hide. [Yes] You are like brilliant bright colors.

Stephanie: It’s where you use your business expense, has therapy with every photo shoot for me. Like I started, and again two years, like this is the next layer in of body image. I started to do photo shoot every three months and every one of them is a business expanse. But honestly you guys, it’s a therapy. [ Yeah.] I just know enough that I can coach myself through it, but it’s a form of therapy that I’m doing to myself by dressing bright colors and photo shoots and [yeah] like the one I did in Cabo in February was my first time at a bathing suit, photo shoot.

Stephanie: [How was that?]

Stephanie: It was, I went through all the spectrum, like [Yeah] I was not in my body before. Like, I was like anxious and I had anxiety and it wasn’t because I was afraid. Like I didn’t have the thought, I’m anxious of doing this. It was literally a traumatic, like it was trauma coming up. It wasn’t because I was thinking it, it was happening to me.

Vanessa: Yes. Do you know Stephanie, I literally remember in the mentorship program we were talking about like what comes first, the thought or the body sensation kind of thing. [Yeah.] And I’ve been, for some reason, thinking about that question for years and I’m going, what you just described, I’m like, I think it can be both. I think we can like have a thought that then, that kind of like then activates the emotion and the behavior. But I think when it comes the other way, it’s like the body is responding to something and then sometimes the thought is trying to make sense of it. So it’s like that.

Stephanie: Yeah, that’s, yeah. That, that’s exactly what it was. It was the anxi, like I wasn’t afraid of the baiting suit like cognitively. [Yes.] But my inner guts, my nervous system was fluttering. But again, I have the skill so I just sat with it and sat with it and sat with it and like just felt it and felt it and it just melted. That’s the best way I can explain it. It just melted.

Vanessa: How did you feel once you like saw the photos?

Stephanie: Well, it happened during the photo shoot. Like when I, it melted in the morning of it [Yeah] and then I hired a woman photographer because that makes, like, I knew this was gonna be better for me [Yeah] and then she, we connected right away.

Stephanie: And then when I put on the bathing suit,I just felt an expansion within me. Right. it’s physiological. Like it was just an expansion and I just went with it. And when I saw the photo, it wasn’t like, I didn’t trigger that same sensation in my body. It was just calm, neutral. [Yeah. That’s a amazing thing.]

Stephanie: What do you make of that complex trauma specialists?

Vanessa: Well, I think what we’ve been kind of talking about of, for so many years, especially for and for how many women, like [yes] being exposed in that way has led to, and we can’t guess on ourselves for some of, you know, has led to potential judgment, potential bullying, potential ridicule, potential rejection.

Vanessa: And so it’s kind of, to me that trauma response armors up out of protection and then, but you have the skills to regulate and breathe through it. And then you integrated that experience of, I did a photo shoot in my bathing suit and I integrated that experience like that was I, and I’m safe. And I came out the other side.

Stephanie: Yeah. The whole time, like the three days before was like, I am gonna teach my body that this is safe. Like I was seeing all that flutter inside of me. I was experiencing like, this is not me. This is my old me. [Yeah] So let’s like bundle it up with love and teach it that it’s safe and teach it that it’s safe.

Stephanie: And so this whole three days leading it was a, an experience for me to teach my nervous system how to respond going forward.

Vanessa: Yes. And I, one of my favorite questions with what you’re describing is you’re in tune and you notice that kind of with what I think is a trauma response. [Yeah.]One of my favorite questions is, what does this part of me need? So it doesn’t go to, I shouldn’t feel this. Well, I’ve, you know, that ridicule. It’s like, what does this part of me need? Well, it needs breath, it needs reassurance. It needs to know that I’m a 30 something year old badass woman choosing to do this. So it’s kind of, I love that question. What does that part of you need?

Stephanie: Yeah. And that’s, I did it and just cuddled it. [Yes.] Because it was that, to me it was that like 17 year old going on a trip with friend in ab bathing suit and like totally paralyzed by it and then I was cuddling that version of me. [Yes.] I was retraining myself to react differently.

Vanessa: Yes. And bringing a layer of like safety and compassion and soothing puddling attention acknowledgement to that wounded 17 year old.

Stephanie: Yeah. So, I dunno how we got here.

Vanessa: Girl. We’ve been everywhere. This always happens. I feel like we need a podcast together. This is so fun.

Stephanie: This is gonna be a two podcast by the way, because I, if you notice almost 90 minutes,

Stephanie: I think we’re gonna end it now, for now. We can do a part three and four later.

Stephanie: [Yes. That sounds good.]

Stephanie: Any parting words for people listening? We started to be here about business and the growth and the expansion you’re living through. Any tips on that for people listening?

Vanessa: I think just kind of summing up where parts of our conversation have gone is one, like even if you are a professional in this field, that it’s okay and the healing process isn’t linear. So really trying to meet yourself in those vulnerable moments with curiosity and compassion, I think too, running your business is like the ultimate, oh my gosh, exercise in nervous system resiliency. So kind of what I like to do is like create this list of what do I wanna do and start with the one, like I said, that feels, it’s uncomfortable but not unsafe and build. But yeah, just that you’re not alone, that you’re not the only one out there being like, okay, today I love it, and next week I’m having that burn it down moment. And I think we need to normalize that. It’s not bad. It can be part of the process, you know?

Stephanie: Yeah. Thank you very much for being so transparent, open and vulnerable.

Vanessa: Yes. Thank you for having me.

Stephanie: Thank you for doing therapy with me.

Vanessa: Also, can we just like congratulate 17 year old Stephanie? I’m serious. I’m like, honey, [thank you] yes.

Stephanie: Yes, she is. And you know what’s funny is I had a blue baiting suit, which is the photo of me, I use a lot on social media and a blue baiting suit before my first diet. And I realized after that I bought the, almost the same blue baiting suit for that photo shoot. [Oh, the repair.]

Vanessa: I know.

Stephanie: Thank you, Vanessa.

Vanessa: Thank you, Stephanie.